this post was submitted on 26 Jan 2024
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[–] [email protected] 328 points 1 year ago (5 children)

smells like legally actionable monopolistic behavior. apple clearly needs to be broken up... when was the last time we did that?

[–] [email protected] 54 points 1 year ago (5 children)

That was literally the point of this ruling. The EU only has the power to enforce things in the EU and they can't force Apple to act differently outside of it.

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[–] [email protected] 34 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (15 children)

see, apples a hard one… i usually agree with breaking companies up, but most of apples value comes from their extremely tight integration. would that be possible if they were separate? i don’t know - i wouldn’t want to lose the value that i get from apple products

like, how would that work?

you’d usually split like hardware and software, but we have m series chips and macos working so damn well because they collaborated really closely

or iphone, mac, homepod? airdrop between devices, airplay, etc is pretty seamless and i’m not sure how well that’d work if they were separated… and again the m series chips are there because they planned for scaling up an iphone to mac size quite a while ago

retail maybe - that could be a good option, but honestly probably a drop in the ocean and wouldn’t solve anything

perhaps if they separated app store from the rest of apple, or music - like a services division? they’re not so tightly integrated (yet)

or perhaps they should just be separated and be made to deal with it - then we would hope they don’t get a bunch of shit business majors in to run them who don’t understand apple and want to make their turf as profitable as possible… but that always ends up happening eventuallly

[–] [email protected] 83 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

you’d usually split like hardware and software, but we have m series chips and macos working so damn well because they collaborated really closely

You don't need to split the OS, it's the App store that needs to be split out, and web browser to be free to choose like in Windows and Android. Microsoft had a judgement on that when they were a monopoly, so they were legally required to offer alternative web browsers equal access on Windows.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago (4 children)

And yet, Microsoft is trying to push Edge down windows users‘ throat…

It’s not quite as bad as effectively not allowing other browsers but it’s not far behind. Apple is less obnoxious than that on macOS. They won’t beg for you to use Safari

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[–] [email protected] 32 points 1 year ago

Integration between products can be done well through standards and public apis. Apple just doesn't expose this functionality to other developers because they want you stuck in their system because of the benefits of the integration between products.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I mean, yeah, turns out that when you are in a quasi monopolistic position in many different markets and you get to decide the rules for all of your competitors you can absolutely integrate your "ecosystem" very smoothly. Go figure.

Their stubbornness on this makes the software/hardware divide the most obvious and a good place to start. Right now they're keeping the hardware hostage to benefit first party software and exclude everyone else's. That clearly has to change.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago

Just an opinion, but if they were forced to use open standards between products then it would still be easy to tightly integrate features between the various "companies". The problem is this would also allow everyone else to play alongside them, meaning Apple would no longer have a monopoly on such things, and the open standards might even gasp be used by other operating systems. But what do I know about Apple products, they may already be using open standards?

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago

"Tight integration" means the company's software works well with their other software. It doesn't mean locking out all others, whether they integrate well or not.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago (2 children)

If there's any company that doesn't need to be broken up, it's Apple. They only really have 3 core functions: hardware, software, and cloud services. And the cloud services really only matter to people using their hardware and software.

A better approach for Apple specifically are pro-consumer regulations. Breaking them up seems unnecessary to me.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago

This argument is dumb, open up the specs, APIs, etc and allow integration with their products. There's no reason only Apple should be able to write software for these products. The specification makes the product appear seamless, there's no reason it couldn't remain so if others developed or manufactured for the platform.

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well, not really, because you could use android, and it commands 70% of the global market share

Also, the way the law is, you have to have both a monopoly & also be causing substantial harm to the public. I.e. you can have a monopoly if it's really nice and more like a public utility. So after the Microsoft antitrust case (for basically same thing), it's been very hard to justify breaking up tech companies or banks

If a company acquires its monopoly by using business acumen, innovation and superior products, it is regarded to be legal; if a firm achieves monopoly through predatory or exclusionary acts, then it leads to anti-trust concern

For example, business can defense that its business conducts bring merits for consumers

(Wikipedia)

What happened with Microsoft browser tie ins antitrust?

Ultimately, the Circuit Court overturned Jackson's holding that Microsoft should be broken up as an illegal monopoly. However, the Circuit Court did not overturn Jackson's findings of fact, and held that traditional antitrust analysis was not equipped to consider software-related practices like browser tie-ins

So in short, Apple's legal / business strategy here is totally solid. Arguably helps users, defended by precedent, and doesn't dominate market share. Of course they have to debate all this

[–] [email protected] 40 points 1 year ago (15 children)

if a firm achieves monopoly through predatory or exclusionary acts, then it leads to anti-trust concern

Hey, ChatGPT ...?

Closed Ecosystem: Apple is known for its closed ecosystem, which can limit users' choices. For instance, iOS users can only download apps from the App Store, and Apple tightly controls the app approval process.

Proprietary Connectors: Apple often uses proprietary connectors and cables, such as the Lightning port, which can be inconvenient for users who want more universal standards like USB-C.

Repairability Issues: Apple products are often criticized for being difficult to repair. For example, the company discourages third-party repairs and designs its products with components that are challenging to replace.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (10 children)

Serious dumb question, how is it considered a monopoly? What forms the monopoly?

The company? If so, what is the proposal? Apple HW team is separate company from SW team? Apple phones and Apple computers are separated?

The app store? There's only one Xbox store on the Xbox, one Nintendo shop on the switch or Wii. It wouldn't make sense to require supporting competition on your hardware. Did N64 games work on the Sega Genesis?

What is constitutes the monopoly and what's the proposed fix?

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago

I'd say that forcing Apple to make it easy to install other operative systems in their hardware would be a good start. And yes, making firmware available for those.

If Apple were to be splitted, I'd separate the whole iPhone branch from the rest of the company.

The app store? There's only one Xbox store on the Xbox, one Nintendo shop on the switch or Wii. It wouldn't make sense to require supporting competition on your hardware. Did N64 games work on the Sega Genesis?

those had enough competitors and weren't the richest companies in the world. Although if it was my decision, I'd force them to open the hardware up too and allow third party software not approved by the manufacturer.

People are paying for the hardware, they should own it and not be imposed artificial limitations.

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[–] Fedegenerate 271 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (40 children)

When a company' website doesn't work on Firefox I don't get angry at Firefox, I just don't use the site. When a company makes their cookie popups are a pain in the ass I don't get angry at the EU, I get angry at the company that made the popup. I use Firefox as a Canary that dies when a website is a piece of shit.

Maybe it's a win-win, I don't have to deal with Apple's bullshit and Apple doesn't have to waste resources on me, for me to block all their shady shit.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I feel the same but I also cannot avoid some sites. Ohio's unemployment and job board only works with Chrome based sites and I have to use those when I'm in between jobs.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 1 year ago (10 children)

This brings up an interesting thought though. Should governments and states be able to prefer you to use a certain browser or should they be required to make the website function on all..

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (2 children)

If the government cared at all about accessibility, then you'd be able to do your taxes in an HTML form.

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[–] [email protected] 247 points 1 year ago (15 children)

I absolutely love how Mozilla has been calling out Apple, Google, and Microsoft. So good.

[–] [email protected] 62 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Sad thing is they don't have enough pull to make people listen.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago

Well they recently got people to get scared of what car manufacturers want to do with all sensitive data they get access to, who knows

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[–] [email protected] 110 points 1 year ago

Of course, they want to make it as complicated as possible so that people don't actually do it.

[–] [email protected] 90 points 1 year ago (2 children)

This is why I support Linux and open source stuff whenever I can. Always used Firefox. Linux on the server and desktop. Doesn't work for everyone but it's the last free open thing we've got. What's been great about Linux is now that basically everything is a Web app Linux is the perfect OS. But now we are dealing with bullshit browser wars. Uhg. Firefox will be the Linux if browsers in no time.

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[–] [email protected] 29 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Bro legit question, why can't all the app developers pull their app from apple store. Within no time apple will change its tune

[–] [email protected] 47 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Because app developers have to jump through a lot of hoops to get into the app store, and even if every single app was pulled then the developers would have to jump through all those hoops again. And this time, Apple won't make it easy. Meanwhile, they are hemorrhaging money for every minute their app is not on the app store. On the other hand, Apple would give incentives to new applicants to replace everything that was pulled, and the app store returns to relatively normal within 24 hours since there are tons of apps out there that just aren't popular enough to be on the app store at the moment. Would you want to be the first developer to pull their app?

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[–] [email protected] 34 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Would you pay for the missed income then? Who would?

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago

Apple only has this power because its users are a major source of income for developers.

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[–] [email protected] 28 points 1 year ago

This is the best summary I could come up with:


Apple’s new rules in the European Union mean browsers like Firefox can finally use their own engines on iOS.

Although this may seem like a welcome change, Mozilla spokesperson Damiano DeMonte tells The Verge it’s “extremely disappointed” with the way things turned out.

“We are still reviewing the technical details but are extremely disappointed with Apple’s proposed plan to restrict the newly-announced BrowserEngineKit to EU-specific apps,” DeMonte says.

In iOS 17.4, Apple will no longer force browsers in the EU to use WebKit, the underlying engine that powers Safari.

“Apple’s proposals fail to give consumers viable choices by making it as painful as possible for others to provide competitive alternatives to Safari,” DeMonte adds.

Epic CEO Tim Sweeney called the new terms a “horror show,” while Spotify said the changes are a “farce.” Apple’s guidelines are still pending approval by the EU Commission.


The original article contains 285 words, the summary contains 142 words. Saved 50%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Lmao i was calling apple out earlier in a thread for this exact reason!!!

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