this post was submitted on 26 Feb 2024
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Risa

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Come on'n get your jamaharon on! There are no real rules—just don't break the weather control network.

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[–] [email protected] 51 points 1 year ago (9 children)

Fun fact: George Takei himself complained that Sulu is portrait gay in the new movies. He said that even tho he himself is gay, he always played Sulu as a straight guy. But why would the headcanon of an actor be more important than any other

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I mean, if it informs the performance meaningfully, it's part of the end product. Doesn't mean it's necessarily canon or whatever, but it certainly has the potential to impact later performances if direction moves away from the actor's previous internal preparation.

I could see it being off-putting to work under a director or with writing that bleeds your public personality into your role, especially if it's one you've gotten to a certain place with.

Like even as a roleplayer, any character i might embody in the moment has a life of its own that's distinct from mine, and would make decisions that I wouldn't. If someone tried to push me into acting a way that's more typical of myself out of character or that's more in line with a different character I play, or if they reacted to the character based on that outside stuff, I'd certainly resist it.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

True, I totally see your point. I think there are different ways to see this:

First, it's someone else who played it so he wasn't forced to do anything. It's just a role he played and now someone else does with different interpretations. You wouldn't blame a Hamlett actor for performing differently than their predecessor. Sure, it's different since Sulu was brought into existence by Takei and didn't really exist in a book or something but still a fictional character played by different people.

Since it's just one little scene I didn't even remember after the first time watching, it isn't part of his story or character building or something. He is just greeted by his husband (or partner) and daughter. In my eyes more of a homage or easter egg to Takei than forcing his personality into the character.

Lastly, HolLyWood goNe w0ke aNywAyS. I don't mean this negatively obviously. Media puts diversity into more and more places and it doesn't even have to do with Takei himself.

Even tho I started the last paragraph with lastly, let me add that I think it might even have more to do with losing control of your creation. Sure, Sulu started as the character played by Sulu but he developed further. It's like trying to force the genie back into the bottle. Sulu isn't Takei and Takei isn't entitled to control Sulu.

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (4 children)

To be fair, John Cho played Sulu straight until it was revealed that he was gay. And even then, there wasn't much gayness to his acting. Unless you count bringing a sword to a skydiving phaser fight, but I'd consider that more bad ass than gay.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (3 children)

And even then, there wasn’t much gayness to his acting.

Care to elaborate?

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What is there to elaborate? Other than a brief embrace shown on screen, he didn't appear to play the role in any stereotypical gay manner. That's all...

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Why would the character be a stereotype?

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I didn't say he was. That's the entire point. They briefly showed some gay characteristics on screen, but otherwise he just played the character plainly.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah, he played the character like a real person (who lives in space and brings a sword to a skydiving phaser fight) and not a caricature.

I'm assuming you don't believe all gay men are stereotypes from 1980s comedies?

So, unless you were expecting there to be hardcore man on man penetrative sex on screen, what would "gayness" to John Cho's acting mean?

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm not playing this game. You're obviously looking for a confrontation. You'll have to find someone else to play with.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm not looking for a confrontation, I just want to know what "gayness in acting" means, and why it is apparently a problem.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I never said it was a problem. You're trying to make a problem where none exists. I'm not playing this game. Have a nice day.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

You’re trying to make a problem where none exists.

Again, I'm only trying to figure out what you meant when you said:

And even then, there wasn’t much gayness to his acting.

Because it sounds pretty ignorant.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

He wasn't a Hollywood camp gay stereotype character.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Why would anyone think he would be?

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Because usually when Hollywood includes a gay character they're doing it to villainize them, make fun of them, or show them off to cynically virtue-signal diversity. Having a character that's just a normal character who happens to be gay, without making a big deal about it or using it as a plot point, is rare.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's not just how Takei played it, the first thing an inhibition-free Zulu does in The Naked Time is to go after Uhura - and Mirror Zulu obviously has the hots for her too.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

Takei's Sulu always gave me bisexual energy.

Source: my wishful thinking (aka my ass)

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Why wouldn't the original actor be the authority on the subject? If they immersed themselves in the material and have a good memory, wouldn't that be "the truth"?

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

But why would the headcanon of an actor be more important than any other

Idk perhaps because actors can imbue characters with unwritten properties through their portrayal?

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[–] [email protected] 39 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

With the debatable exception of Jadzia, all those characters were exclusively shown in heterosexual relationships.

Rejoined was a great episode.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 1 year ago (2 children)

all those characters were exclusively shown in heterosexual relationships.

That's not exactly evidence against them all being bi

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago

This is where the wishful thinking, mentioned earlier, comes to play I guess.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

By that logic, there's also no evidence that god doesn't exist.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Bisexuals exist and aren't always obvious, so "absent evidence to the contrary, that person might be bisexual" is not an extraordinary claim — hell, assuming similar prevalence of bisexuality then as we see now, which is arguably the lower bound given the cultural changes depicted, it's statistically improbable that there wouldn't be at least one non-straight person in the main cast.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't care.

I don't need to know their exact sexual preferences. That is not of any influence to the story. If it was, it would have been in the story and if it was in the story, it wouldn't have mattered what their preference was, because it would have made sense either way in the context of the story.

Issues of sexuality and gender are already being adressed in this show, there is no need to project them into situations where they're not.

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Don’t get baited

I got suckered into arguing about this very topic some days ago, and only had my sexuality questioned when they ran out of arguments. Suffice it to say that there is plenty of wishful thinking involved

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sure, but that doesn't mean they were exclusively heterosexual.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The definition of canon is that which is shown on screen.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Any character that does not explicitly say they were hetero/homosexual is canonically bi until proven otherwise.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago (2 children)

If they're not shown in explicitly sexual relationships, they're canonically ace.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

if they are not shown going the the toilet, they're canonically in voluntary urinary retention

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

Julian and Garak were clearly in a relationship. Just ask Garak.

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Kira was a rebel at heart.

Bashir was in the "I've been genetically modified, which is illegal, so should I have kids?" camp, if I remember correctly.

Sisko loved his wife.

Odo was a gelatinous blob.

Jadzia was influenced by past multiple personalities, so she likely loved pans and pots.

O'Brien was a weeb. He only loved his waifu, the transporter room.

Jake was a reporter. He loved crawling into holes he shouldn't have been crawling into.

Quark was a businessman. He loved risky ventures.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

He only loved his waifu, the transporter room.

Slight disagree, he only loved his waifu, constantly breaking systems.

Miles "I can fix her" O'Brein

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago (8 children)

Quark is a straight white male, or my name isn't Jeremiah Paxton

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

He's a straight green goblin.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

This is acceptable

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[–] loopedcandle 15 points 1 year ago (9 children)

Although it isn't really shown, Odo is nonbinary by definition isn't he?

[–] [email protected] 40 points 1 year ago (1 children)
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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Not necessarily. It'd be for how he views himself. While the shapeshifters kinda' explore the concept in some episodes, it may be fair to assume they identify as they present, because they can literally present how they want.

Granted, I could see Odo having some odd identity issues with presenting to please others or over duty to his job more than personal identity given his upbringing...

Did they explore his gender identity in that episode(s) or did they leave it all allegory? Ugh it was so long ago... Maybe time for a rewatch.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ah yes gender politics, only thing missing from Star Trek themed discussion.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Naw it's not missing. Always been there.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Agreed on all points except Garak, the simple tailor.

Anybody who misses how shamelessly he flirts with Julian needs their head-canon checked on.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Isn't cis another word for straight?
I honestly don't know, just asking

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Cis refers to gender identity where as straight refers to their sexuality.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Well, trans as a root means across from, or on the other side of.

Cis means on this side of. Both are from latin roots.

When using it in gender discussions, it means someone that isn't trans, aka the gender normative, aka the folks that match in terms of inner and outer gender expression.

Cisgender started out as a term back in the nineties, as a way to be able to refer to the majority that are gender normative with a simpler term when discussing transgender/transexual issues. As you can see, it is incredibly cumbersome to describe the cisgender people of the world without using cis. Pain in the ass when you're writing or talking about the subject. And the nineties are when that kind of discussion became more prevalent.

There's also the fact that people have put unnecessary weight to the word "normal", and tend not to understand the word normative. Because of the way normal has been used for a very long time now, despite it really meaning something that's typical, any use of it implies that everything else is abnormal in a bad way rather than just not typical. Largely because in most fields, abnormal is a bad thing. Abnormal blood work as an example.

So, we have heteronormative and cisnormative for the straights and non trans people behaving in typical ways for those groups as well as cisgender meaning aligning with one's nominative gender.

Now, can cis be used to denote "straight" people? Kinda, but not really. It would be a very unusual usage because straight in terms of non normative sexuality being discussed almost always refers to sexual orientation. Using cis to mean straight isn't unreasonable, particularly since you'll run into situations where gay people and trans people might just use straight as a shorter word for cis-hetero. But you won't see that in anything but casual settings because of the very confusion you're dealing with. Most of my close friends are gay or otherwise under the lgbtq+ heading, and I've never actually heard anyone use cis as a synonym for straight, but I have heard "straights" used as a term that includes cis.

Yay for language!

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