this post was submitted on 29 Feb 2024
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[–] [email protected] 34 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Still think something between communism and capitalism would be the best. Both show a lot of problems but both have benefits. A well regulated and equal competition with linear growth(not like capitalism with its exponential growth that produces musks and bezos') sounds right to me. I think UBI would be exploited so just give them the basics in food, shelter, internet access, etc. But of course in the hellscape called modern politics everyone has to be an extremist so only hardcore capitalism, hardcore communism, genocide, etc are represented.

[–] [email protected] 36 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Market economies are actually pretty great for a lot of things. The problems we have in capitalism are 1. the capitalist class, who make their living without contributing anything by min-maxing wages and prices, and 2. the privatization of necessities.

  1. A market economy for non-essentials would work splendidly so long as the income of each business was distributed to the people who actually did the work. The problem is non-working shareholders. Every worker should be a shareholder, every shareholder should be a worker. Market socialism is the way.

  2. Market economies cannot work efficiently for essentials. If the alternative to a purchase is death or serious injury, it ceases to be a voluntary purchase, the downward pressure of abstinence vanishes, and prices skyrocket. We've seen this in healthcare and housing. We need a public option for both.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago

Profit motive still forces enshittification, unfortunately.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism

There's also a lot to be said about financial norms and systems, for instance regardless of the organization of labor the way we measure GDP is fundamentally a very flawed and arbitrary approximation of "wealth" yet it is the driver behind so many political decisions. My (admittedly unqualified) understanding is thst we could significantly improve quality of life and market efficiency by addressing some of these flaws.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

This is the way

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

I think if we can steer this burning trash pile into a regulated coop-based economy, with a star-based voting system (I'd settle for ranked choice at this point), whose economy isn't propped up by the cheap exploitation of developing foreign nations, I'll be much happier. While we're at it, solving homelessness and developing more sustainable infrastructures would be great.

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago

Capitalism is very clearly not a one-size-fits-all solution…but if there’s one thing capitalism hates, it’s competition.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

capitalism corrupts

Also there's nothing inherently wrong with extreme ideology as a concept. It's only a call for radical change to the current social order. Liberalism which is to say our modern "democratic capitalist" structure would have been considered extremism during feudal times.

The extremist boogie man is a lie peddled by those who benefit from the status quo to insure those who don't are too scared to change it

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Extremism usually relies on wishful thinking tbh. Also see this handy chart:

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The problem is that some of them don't have to wait for society to collapse, sometimes society is destined to decay into a specific form. The final stage of capitalism is fascism

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah no, just because a socialist philosopher said it doesn't make it true. Every economic system will eventually collapse for some reason, but the reasons for the collapse and the circumstances matter much more for predicting the future after the collapse than the system that collapsed. If you don't believe that look at the many ways societies changed when feudalism collapsed.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Marxist philosophy isn't just a prediction of what will be it's also a analysis of how we ended up where we are and where we are headed. If you're interested in learning about how Marx processed the world it's worth reading into dialectical materialism. Marxism is much more complex than a simple capitalism eventually fails and socialism comes next.

In short, dialectical materialism is a philosophy that emphasizes the effects of material conditions and opposing interests on social relations. It is not specifically an economic philosophy but it is a very useful toolset for understanding the intricacies of socioeconomics. It also suggests that the best way to resolve contradictions is to restructure society so that those contradictions are eliminated. While that last bit sounds really obvious there's been a lot of fighting about it, I'd elaborate but Hegelian dialectics is fucking gibberish if you aren't familiar with the terminology.

So basically yeah some guy saying something doesn't make it true but it's worth checking when that guy has had his work holds up after being scrutinized and expanded upon for 2 centuries

Some of the og stuff

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah no, Marx's predictions were wrong. The most obvious one is he thought the workers revolutions would come from industrialized nations, that was completely wrong. But, with many of his other claims, those who support his ideology will twist any event happening to fit their narrative, just as a christian may twist any event into fulfilling a biblical prophecy.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Oh fuck I forgot, Marx did get one thing wrong. I guess the entire philosophical and logical scientific analysis developed by 100s of scholars is just trash, my mistake

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (35 children)

Why not something like market socialism?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (10 children)

Market Socialism is a great common sense first step, but it leaves enshittification because it keeps the profit motive. Ideally the profit motive should be phased out.

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[–] [email protected] 26 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago
[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago

*and the same

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

Serious question not trying to troll here: Isn't everyone stuck in this hellish capitalist system part of that class?

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago (10 children)

No. Classes are determined by how you get your money and by how comfortable you are.

If you are working for a paycheck, you do not touch capital.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

If you are working for a paycheck, you do not touch capital.

Ok so I have my beef with capitalism, for sure, but this is inaccurate. People all over the country own property, shares in public and private companies, shares of government utilities, just to name a few examples.

Ownership of things does get distributed through capitalism. As manipulated as it is, that’s the concept of the stock market.

I’m not rich, but I do own a small amount of capital. My net worth far, far exceeds what I have in my bank account when you account for my car that I’ve paid off, small investments that have appreciated over time, stuff like that.

Now the top of the capitalist class? They have SO MUCH cash, and so many resources to draw on that they can manipulate stock prices and company values at will. That’s where the whole system starts to break down.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

Idk what definition of capital you used to determine this but I will be using the Marxist on because capital is a Marxist term.

Capital is private property used to create surplus value usually involving the purchase of wage labor. It can be the money a capitalist uses to pay their employees, the land their workers use to produce surplus value for them, and/or the machinary required for their workers to produce surplus value as a few examples. Buying stocks does not mean you own the means of production in any significant way. You may have stake in how those means of production are use but you do not control them and you do not use them to produce surplus value nor do you purchase wage labor, you only profit off someone who does.

Furthermore your personal possessions like your car are not capital.

If you sell your labor to someone who possesses the means of production you are proletariat

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (3 children)

If you work for a living, and being unemployed indefinitely would threaten your survival, you are part of the working class. Owning a few crumbs of capital is a nice cushion, but does not define your class.

If your income is passive, and you could live your whole life off the returns from your investments without ever actually working, you are part of the capitalist class.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

'Ownership of things DOES get distributed..."

Uhhhh, no? Are you dumb? Owning stock in a company is far, FAR removed from owning any part of a company's assets.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Ok, so are we talking about assets or capital?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

Capital is not money, capital can be represented by money but it is not inherently money. Capital is something you use to buy someone's labor. More specifically it is the social relationship between wage labor and profit. Assets (private property) used to produce profit (surplus value) are capital

Capital is “the characteristic the means of production acquire when they are used to hire labor and generate surplus value”

"Capital is dead labour, that, vampire-like, only lives by sucking living labour, and lives the more, the more labour it sucks."

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

You do not get any access to the company's resources. There is no dollar sitting in company coffers for your dollar of investment. You don't get to decide what that money does what so evwr, and its value is speculative on the performance.

That is far, far, far removed from owning or controlling any part of a company's capital.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

there is no capital without labour

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Then maybe labor should organize its own capital and not some entitled prick of a class.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's literally what socialism and communism are

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yes, I am a great proponent of those things. Why did you assume otherwise?

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago

No.

Basic and simplified class analysis is about shared interests based on similar social relations to Production.

The Workers do not own Capital, at least not in significant amounts.

Capitalists own Capital. They pay Workers wage labor to create commodities for sale.

There are other classes, but that's the long and short of it.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The actual specific class you belong to can be tricky because there are sub-classes and shit like that but generally speaking you can simplify class dynamics into the owning class (bourgeoisie) and the working class (proletariat). If you own the means of production, the actual property such as land or machinary required to produce things, and you buy others labor to produce these things that you then sell, you are bourgeoisie. If you sell your labor then your are proletariat. You'll find that the interests of these classes are in opposition; the bourgeois wants to increase profit through any means so as to provide for themselves and for investors while the prole wants a better standard of living, a safe work environment, and less work hours among many other things I need not name. These interest come into direct conflict when the capitalist runs out of ways to externally increase profit controlling a certain market niche, there is only so much demand. When this happens the capitalist looks inward at their company and wonders if they can increase profit through other means like cutting pay, skirting around safety regulations, finding ways to get around providing benefits, cutting pensions, etc etc. The really big bourgeoisie also look towards the legal system, if it only cost them 60mil of lobbying to change a law that makes them billions then that law is dead. The profit motive kills

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

How does this work for the modern world though? Many of the people who make the financial decisions for the company that I work for are also normal people with a normal income. Their job is to maximize profit for the company under certain constraints, but it's not like they directly get that money for themselves. The image of the proletariat working ungodly hours in dangerous factories while a few rich fat capitalists claim all the money is often quite far from reality in my experience, apart from the ultra-rich CEOs like Musk and Bezos. And I don't disagree that we should regulate the income disparity or anything, I just think that these classes don't really make that much sense anymore

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

The definitions are tricky based on how you read them, but no. Your role in society is to perform labor (I'm assuming), and the fruits of that labor are then forfeited to those above you for a wage. Thus they have the capital and would belong to the "capitalist class."

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)
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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The idea of there being a form Capitalism which is not corrupt is about as ill-informed as the idea that there can be a World were everybody has the same as everybody else for ever and ever (i.e. the Utopia called Communism, which is not at all the same as the political bullshit out there called thus) and for the same reason: human Greed.

For there to be Capitalism there have to be Laws (the bare minimum being Contract Law and Property Law, and if you want things like ownership of ideas then also Intellectual Property Laws, plus indirectly the whole edifice of Criminal Law to make sure that violence is not used to force some for the profit of others).

Laws have to be made and ajusted as times change as well as appropriate punishments defined; there has to be Oversight to see if Laws are abidded by or not; there has to be Judgement of people's actions with regards to those Laws; there has to be enforcement of the punishments for breaking the Law. Lets call the people who do all this Lawmakers and Law-enforcers.

How can anybody expect that Lawmakers and Law-enforcers, at the very least when such things impact profit making, under Capitalism where "Greed is Good" and wealth is the most important measure of a man, to not serve their own personal greed first and foremost, which in such positions often means being corrupt?!

Even if magically we started with squeaky clean Lawmakers and Law-enforcers, many people outside who are not squeaky clean and are looking to enrich themselves would be attracted to such positions were they can sell their control of the powers of law-making and law-enforcement to the highest bidder so you would always end up with corruption in Politics and the Judiciary as the crooked replaced the honest.

It's frankly hilarious to expect that in Capitalism everybody would be looking out for numero uno except for those responsible for making and enforcing the framework of Laws that is the only difference between Capitalism and Anarchy, with those people expected put first and foremost the interests of Society above their own (in other words, be Socialists).

In summary: Capitalism naturally breeds corruption because maintaining and applying the very framework of rules that supports Capitalism without becoming corrupt would require in the right places a special group of impeccably honest people not influenced by the very Capitalist Spirit that pervades the rest of Society, along with a system making sure any replacement for those people are also of the same kind, all of which is impossible.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

To be fair, Communism doesn't assume everyone gets the same. In fact, that's a big part of why Marx doesn't say "Communism is when everyone is the same and gets the same forever."

From Critique of the Gotha Programme:

"But one man is superior to another physically, or mentally, and supplies more labor in the same time, or can labor for a longer time; and labor, to serve as a measure, must be defined by its duration or intensity, otherwise it ceases to be a standard of measurement. This equal right is an unequal right for unequal labor. It recognizes no class differences, because everyone is only a worker like everyone else; but it tacitly recognizes unequal individual endowment, and thus productive capacity, as a natural privilege. It is, therefore, a right of inequality, in its content, like every right. Right, by its very nature, can consist only in the application of an equal standard; but unequal individuals (and they would not be different individuals if they were not unequal) are measurable only by an equal standard insofar as they are brought under an equal point of view, are taken from one definite side only – for instance, in the present case, are regarded only as workers and nothing more is seen in them, everything else being ignored. Further, one worker is married, another is not; one has more children than another, and so on and so forth. Thus, with an equal performance of labor, and hence an equal in the social consumption fund, one will in fact receive more than another, one will be richer than another, and so on. To avoid all these defects, right, instead of being equal, would have to be unequal.

But these defects are inevitable in the first phase of communist society as it is when it has just emerged after prolonged birth pangs from capitalist society. Right can never be higher than the economic structure of society and its cultural development conditioned thereby.

In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly – only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!"

Essentially, Communism is a goal to work towards, a final step for humanity to cross over. It isn't when everyone gets exactly the same for unequal work, it's when everyone can give what they can and get what they need. If someone wants more, they can get more.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

This also works with cops.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (11 children)

"But it wasn't real socialism". Other attempts to create socialist government.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (20 children)

But that is almost universally said in response to people pointing to things that were in no way socialism or communism. They have actual definitions.

The glorious democratic people's republic of korea is literally none of those things and no one is stupid enough to fall for a name there, but it happens all the time something like China.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

It was the system, not the individuals, all along?

[surprised pikachu face]

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