this post was submitted on 28 Feb 2025
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[–] [email protected] 36 points 1 month ago (12 children)

Do anarchists think anarchy will result in a system with no classes?

[–] [email protected] 54 points 1 month ago (5 children)

Yes, because anarchism is against all hierarchies and the class system is a form of hierarchy. Instead, decisions should me made collectively, for example in councils open for everyone

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 month ago (2 children)

@lugal @danc4498 Anarchism is against specifically unjust hierarchies, it can permit certain ones to exist within individual communities should the community find it justified, but still strongly favours not having any where possible.

There are a group of anarchists who would still believe in the idea of an adult > child hierarchy as they struggle to imagine an alternative world without it.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (9 children)

Parents have natural bootmaker authority and if you want to be a good parent then you realise that the kids also have it: They, or maybe better put their genome, know how they need to be raised, and try to teach you, as well as (with increasing age) seek out the exact bootmakers that seem sensible. Worst thing you can do as a parent is to think that learning is a one-way street.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Anarchism thus becomes meaningless as anyone who defends certain hierarchies obviously does so because they believe they are just. Literally everyone on earth is against "unjust hierarchies" at least in their own personal evaluation of said hierarchies. People who support capitalism do so because they believe the exploitative systems it engenders are justifiable and will usually immediately tell you what those justifications are. Sure, you and I might not agree with their argument, but that's not the point. To say your ideology is to oppose "unjust hierarchies" is to not say anything at all, because even the capitalist, hell, even the fascist would probably agree that they oppose "unjust hierarchies" because in their minds the hierarchies they promote are indeed justified by whatever twisted logic they have in their head.

Telling me you oppose "unjust hierarchies" thus tells me nothing about what you actually believe, it does not tell me anything at all. It is as vague as saying "I oppose bad things." It's a meaningless statement on its own without clarifying what is meant by "bad" in this case. Similarly, "I oppose unjust hierarchies" is meaningless statement without clarifying what qualifies "just" and "unjust," and once you tell me that, it would make more sense you label you based on your answer to that question. Anarchism thus becomes a meaningless word that tells me nothing about you. For example, you might tell me one unjust hierarchy you want to abolish is prison. It would make more sense for me to call you a prison abolitionist than an anarchist since that term at least carries meaning, and there are plenty of prison abolitionists who don't identify as anarchist.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 month ago (12 children)

So, do the anarchists not think that capitalism will just prevail and bring along with it the classes of the haves and have nots? Anarchy won’t solve the problem of wealth inequality, will it? I have genuinely never understood this aspect of anarchism.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 1 month ago (2 children)

The system where someone monopolizes a essential good and leverages that to gain power is called anarcho-capitalism and is a whole different thing. In anarchy, ownership on that level does not exist. Neither a company nor a person can own a factory, or a farm, or the power grid. Employment doesn't exist. People can band together and distribute tasks for a common goal (such as producing a certain good) but they all hold equal stake in all decisions.

Of course a group of people could use violence to oppress other people. But then you no longer have anarchy. The same way a democracy stops beeing a democracy once a group seizes power and doesn't allow fair elections anymore.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Neither a company nor a person can own a factory, or a farm, or the power grid

And who is going to stop a company from owning a factory or a farm? It wouldn’t even require violence for a company to do so. It just requires them to have enough resources to pay people to do it.

I guess I don’t see what you call “anarchy” as a system that would ever exist more than a year. The end result would always be “anarcho-capitalism”. That, or, people would have to form their own government to prevent that system.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 month ago (3 children)

The company would need violence. There's no reason for workers to work in a factory for less money than their goods are sold for, and there's no reason for the company to pay workers more than the goods are sold for. Without violence the workers could just produce and sell the goods themselves and ignore the company.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Is this a society without computers and other modern day electronics? Or do you think workers will be able to handle developing technology on their own?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 month ago

Well, it's unlikely the entire world will turn anarchist all at once, and the modern supply chain is global, so the anarchist community would trade for what they need from outside the community. Or they may choose to go anarcho-primitivism I guess. I think some remote indigenous tribes we have now could be considered anarcho-primitivist. The most successful anarcho-socialist community would probably be the Zapatistas.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

Of course a group of people could use violence to oppress other people. But then you no longer have anarchy.

The irony is that the amount of coordination needed to protect anarchism would no longer be called anarchism

You will always end up recreating some form of organizations to manage resources. The best you can do is ensure those organizations are structured with accountability to make sure they're fair to everybody

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 month ago (1 children)

The irony is that the amount of coordination needed to protect anarchism would no longer be called anarchism

This is a common misunderstanding. While there are anti organisationist anarchists, others dream of a world while spanning confederation based on voluntary cooperation and mutual aid. Anarchism in general isn't the absence of organization but the absence of hierarchy and domination (therefore isn't anticapitalist in nature)

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

It is anticapitalist by nature in that capitalism is a system where a person can own the means of production and use that ownership to acquire profits. That ownership is a form of domination and creates an arbitrary hierarchy, who makes all the decisions: the owner, why do they make all the decisons: because they had the wealth to buy the company.

You can have organization and markets though without capitalism, such as with anarcho-syndaclism. Basically you have a bunch of coops that are run and controlled by elected workers councils that can trade with each other voluntarily.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 month ago

That's more or less where anarcho-syndaclism goes. Get all the workers into unions who take over their companies and turn them into co-ops. Then the co-ops collaborate and you don't need the state or anything else.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Anarchism is anti capitalist in nature since capitalism entails hierarchies

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 month ago (4 children)

I just don’t understand how people think an anarchy can protect itself from capitalism.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Let's take the most "conservative" form of anarchism: anarchosyndicalism. Every factory is organized in councils, confederated both with the import or mining council and the consumer council. Now a capitalist comes and asks how much this factory costs. Do you think the council will tell them a price or to fuck off?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Well, I don’t think a capitalist will call themselves a capitalist. I think they will have allies that get themselves appointed to the council and before we know it the factory is doing the bidding of the capitalists.

And yes, I am incredibly cynical (I blame the last 25 years), so I get that a less cynical perspective exists where this wouldn’t happen.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

The council isn't elected. It's open for everyone to join in all decisions. It might delegate some tasks, even smaller decisions, but it can always recall them.

So in your scenario, the council would delegate the power to sell the factory to a group of people which is very unlikely. Now this group of people who are trusted by everyone would decide to sell the factory which might happen. But the council would most certainly recall them from this decision making power the never should have given away in the first place.

Maybe I should have stressed more that a council is really open for everyone to join. It's not an elected parliament or something

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago

I gotcha. It just feels to me like there are so many opportunities for the capitalists to abuse this system for their own profit and power. People are easily manipulated, even when they think what they’re doing is for the good of the community.

Maybe the factory doesn’t sell, but it could still very much feed the capitalists through manipulation of the members of the council. My cynical view: It may not be immediate, but it will be inevitable.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

By teaching history, including how capitalism killed millions of people, whole ecosystems and uncountable species.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Anarchism is opposition to power hierarchies, specifically non-consensual or coercive ones. Wealth inequality without safety networks is a coercive power hierarchy, and so needs to be fought. Capitalism as a whole is almost always incompatible with anarchy, at least in the way we tend to do it now. In a system with strong social safety networks the choice to work for someone can actually be a choice, and so some schools of thought would view it as compatible.
Others view exclusive ownership of property as someone asserting power over someone else's ability to use said property, and therefore wrong. Needless to say, abolition of private property is not compatible with capitalism.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Isn't anarchy just against imposed hierarchy? Most anarchists I've met are okay with heirarchies that form naturally, and believe those hierarchies to be enough for society to function, hence why they call themselves anarchists, not minarchists.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 month ago

I have never heard the term minarchist. Many anarchists say, we need structures against the building of hierarchies, like avoiding knowledge hierarchies by doing skillshares.

Natural authorities are a different topic. I think Kropotkin was an example of a leader who was accepted because everyone agreed with him. Once he said something people didn't like, they rejected him as a leader. You can call this a hierarchy if you like. I wouldn't because he couldn't coerce his followers but this is pure terminology.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago (6 children)

There is a huge difference between how things should work and how they will though. Without any system of enforcement, I would call it nothing but wishful thinking.

In fairness, democracy was a kind of wishful thinking too, which is why I would propose a new form of monarchy instead: https://arendjr.nl/blog/2025/02/new-monarchy/

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 month ago (2 children)
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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago (6 children)

Your proposal is just an idealistic version of early US. You claim that corruption is fundamentally impossible, but assume that magically "the monarchs aren't allowed to own property" without regard to enforcement. You claim to have an alternative to democracy but still propose majority voting on replacing rulers and constitutions. You simply assume that monarchs will keep each other in check and not devolve into the conspiring, warmongering tyrants that history is full of.

Power can always be abused to get more power and go against all your original ideals. The only way to definitely prevent corruption is to ensure power is never concentrated in the hands of few.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago (4 children)

How would you reach consensus between hundreds of millions of people?

Look, I am sympathetic to the cause behind anarchism but it doesn’t work because it insists on ignoring biological realities. We need to look no further than our ape cousins to see how some hierarchical structure is inherent to our society. Only through the existence of a state can we reduce hierarchy and increase equality.

A stateless society wouldn’t last 10 minutes before establishing a state.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 month ago (2 children)

I agree with you in that we cannot have a society without some form of state, but I think the idea is that we would have small community governments with more or less direct democracy. Also, bio-essentialism? Really?

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 month ago (1 children)

When a monkey hoards all the bananas, the other monkeys kill him and share the bananas. Anarchy is natural.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

If might makes right a state will end up forming anyways. A populist commune is still a state. Anarchy is not possible in any sense of what one might describe as a functional society. As soon as there’s a society a state will form.

But that’s also not how chimpanzee society works anyways, since mostly it’s an alpha challenged by a younger stronger chimp who takes their place and makes sure everyone else follows the rules. They even have something like a police force.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago (1 children)

It's a government, but it isn't necessarily a state. Regardless, Anarchists aren't against all forms of government. The media's version of total chaos is not what Anarchists are trying to create.

Here's some more information if you want it: https://anarchistfaq.org/afaq/sectionA.html#seca1

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Ape hierarchies, at least within the troops, are mostly about mating not resource distribution. It's not like the alpha male gets first pick of the fruit and all the other chimps wait until he's done and then go in hierarchical order, they just disperse and grab what they can.

If you want to go down an essentialist path most pre-agricultural societies were anarchic. There may be a chief but they "ruled" at the discretion of the tribe. The chief, or anyone really, couldn't hoard resources because

  1. they couldnt monopolize violence and coerce people since there's no specialization in anything much less violence so violence becomes a numbers game.

  2. There's only so much you can carry. Pre agricultural tribes were nomadic mostly and when the tribe moves camps you have to carry everything with you. So even if you were able to hoard enough food that won't rot you won't be able to carry it to the next camp.

  3. Because of the above, wealth isn't really a thing. This forces cooperation because without wealth, the individual can't protect themselves from hardship. Selfish individualism only works if you're able to build up some wealth to act as a buffer for leaner times. If you don't have that wealth then you're reliant on your social connections so you tend to cooperate and redistribute because it's in your best interest to stay in good standing with the group so they will help you in harsher times.

All this changes with agriculture and the invention of wealth, first in grain then in gold and then stocks etc. Now your dependence on society is directly porportional to how much wealth you have, to the point where really rich people can fuck off to a cabin or island and never work or contribute to society ever again.

Violence specialization also becomes more or less a thing, increasing up until the invention of firearms at which point it becomes more of a numbers game and the hierarchies lessen.

All of this is to say that hierarchy is not natural, but the result of the ability to accumulate wealth combined with violence specialization and monopolization. If we get rid of those two concepts then anarchy may take over, how we do that in the modern world is another question.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

It's not one big council but a confederation of councils. I like the idea of fractal democracy. Like a huge river branching into smaller ones and when you zoom in, these smaller ones branch again and again. You have councils on many levels, each making decisions, delegating to the next level and being recallable from below.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

That just sounds like nothing will ever get done, but it would be worth simulating. Maybe it is good, who knows.

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 month ago

Depends on the anarchist. Many would focus on seeking the absence of involuntary power hierarchies. A manager who distributes work and does performance evaluations isn't intrinsically a problem, it's when people doing the work can't say "no, they're a terrible manager and they're gone", or you can't walk away from the job without risking your well-being.

Anarchists and communists/socialists have a lot of overlap. There's also overlap with libertarians, except libertarians often focus on coercion from the government and don't give much regard to economic coercion. An anarchist will often not see much difference between "do this or I hit you" and "do this or starve": they both are coercive power hierarchies.
Some anarchists are more focused on removing sources of coercion. Others are more focused on creating relief from it. The "tear it down" crowd are more visible, but you see anarchists in the mutual aid and community organization crowds as well.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 month ago

Anarchists recognize class as a social construct rather than a biological imperative or a free market condition. As a result, they will often make a point of transgressing or undermining the pageantry that class-centric organizations cling to.

Its not that they think "no classes" will be a result so much as they think "explicitly defying class" is a political act.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 month ago (1 children)

They define anarchy differently from the common definition. Anarchists believe in creating community organizations to serve the needs of society, but they refrain from calling it a state because they believe a state requires a monopoly on the acceptable use of violence.

They don't think that we should just dissolve society and let everyone fend for themselves to eliminate class, unless they're an edgy teenager.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Anarchy means "without hierarchy". Classes are a hierarchy, so by definition it wouldn't be anarchy if you don't dissolve class.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 month ago

Anarchism is not the thing you're told about in the media. It isn't a total lack of all government. It's a removal of hierarchical systems and exploitation. There still needs to be systems to protect people from these. They'd just be done through concensus.

This page has more information if you want to learn. https://anarchistfaq.org/afaq/sectionA.html#seca1

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago

It's actually right in the name. Anarchy from an-arkhos means "without ruler". They think hierarchies are illegitimate per se.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago
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