this post was submitted on 21 Mar 2024
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[–] [email protected] 135 points 1 year ago (14 children)

Funny, but what does the skin color have to do with the situation?

[–] [email protected] 103 points 1 year ago (13 children)

When a given demographic is a dominant presence in a given area (not necessarily work, it can be anything), there is a tendency for they demographic to start making assumptions about other demographics.

In most places, men are the dominant presence, and in most of the "western" world, they will also be white.

In this case, the individual who a white male was doing what's called colloquially, "mansplaining". He was correcting a woman when not only was the woman right, but was the very source he was using to correct her.

This is a consistent and very unpleasant fact of the world that white men will treat anyone of any other demographic as less than equals.

In this specific case, I suspect that the person making that post was pointing to the prejudice and stupidity of the person indirectly insulting her being a systemic issue arising from both gender and sexual entrenchment along with the privilege that allows the dominance of the white male demographic despite their being no quantifiable factor for that group to be dominant other than that privilege.

She, in other words, was pointing out a systemic issue by using an anecdote. Which can be a bit difficult to accept as evidence. Or would be if there wasn't a good century or so of giant piles of anecdotes from real people pointing to that systemic issue not only existing, but being something that holds everyone back.

Truth? Yes, women and people of color are going to assume they're right and whoever they're talking to is wrong just like any humans will. But white dudes have been pulling that crap for multiple generations, and anyone that isn't both white and male get sick of the bad behavior.

[–] [email protected] 39 points 1 year ago (2 children)

This is a consistent and very unpleasant fact of the world that white men will treat anyone of any other demographic as less than equals.

Pls stop generalizing this bad behavior upon all white men. It only serves to further the divide, and is completely unfair and uncalled for against those in the demographic who don't subscribe to those beliefs or patterns of behavior.

I'm not sure if that was your intent, that's just how it comes across and it makes it hard not to completely write off your argument/viewpoints for being unable to respect your neighbor.

[–] [email protected] 33 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'm a white man. I can absolutely generalize about a well known aspect of reality. It isn't in question that white men are currently in a position of overall privilege, and that as a group that position of privilege has the effect stated.

I pretty much also said that this is true in the western world where white men are the supposed majority. I said that the same would be the case with any dominant group because humans are just like that.

A generalization can not only be true in general, but it doesn't inherently mean that the entire group is at fault (beyond any unintentional benefits from the situation, which is what's called privilege in current discourse on matters of gender and race in specific, but applies to more than those alone).


Here's the thing. Until and unless we, not just as white men (speaking of the group I'm in) work on calling out and correcting bad behaviors as a group, to the point that it ceases to be a problem for others, we are part of the problem, no matter how little any individual likes that.

Divisions currently exist. They will always exist because any time there is a place of authority/power, there will be those that seek it and use it. Over time, you might see a given demographic shift in and out of that place of power, but it won't change humans being humans; there will be abuse of power.

That's the real key. The fact that white men have held dominance over most of the world for centuries (for a given value of most, and a given value of white) is simply fact. One could argue that the position of dominance really covers all the world since anyone wanting to disrupt that has to contend against that hierarchy. There are definitely places where, within a region* white men aren't the dominant group, kinda impossible to be otherwise. But trying to pretend that the world isn't the way it is is just silly.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I think the generalization isn't really about white men per se, but about the demographic in power. Give a group unchecked power long enough and they forget how that came to be. I agree that it's not a rule, and maybe should be expressed as more of a heuristic: if you are speaking to someone that is in power, and you don't look like them, they might think you are not empowered.

Don't let the lack of nuance in that statement take away from all the very valid points being made. The plight is real, and hopefully the white men who are enlightened enough to not confuse circumstance with natural order will read and know to not take it personally.

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[–] [email protected] 37 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I still don't see why adding the skin color was important, but eh, I have other things to deal with, so I don't really care, just found it slightly annoying.

[–] [email protected] 35 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Gender not important also, loads of women "mansplain", it's a problem with attitude, not gender or race

[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 year ago

Yep, I hate that word as well, but didn't have the energy to post about it....

[–] [email protected] 32 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

This is a consistent and very unpleasant fact of the world that white men will treat anyone of any other demographic as less than equals.

Citation needed.

In all seriousness, I understand your point and respect you for trying to deconstruct the mechanics of privilege.

But I just factually disagree with your assertion. I would argue that every human being has an inherent preference for people that they perceive as similar to themselves in some way, and this can result in bias along racial or gender lines. However, this arguably applies less to white men than any other demographic, because such behavior is so consistently condemned and shamed when exhibited by white men.

In contrast, people of other demographics are less frequently made aware of their own biases, because calling it out has not been construed as some kind of ethical imperative, as it has with white men.

It's also well documented that women have a much stronger in-group bias compared to men.

In essence, women can be characterized as “If I am good and I am female, females are good,” whereas men can be characterized as “Even if I am good and I am male, men are not necessarily good.” This sex difference in cognitive balance suggests that a mechanism that promotes female preference in women does not similarly contribute to male preference for men.

https://rutgerssocialcognitionlab.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/9/7/13979590/rudmangoodwin2004jpsp.pdf

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Your barely-in-context paper is not support for your main argument :

However, this arguably applies less to white men than any other demographic, because such behavior is so consistently condemned and shamed when exhibited by white men.

Do you have any citations that actually support your claim? Because it sounds like vibes "please don't say mean things about my group" bullshit.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

That's not my main argument, it's merely a supporting clause.

OP asserted that

white men will treat anyone of any other demographic as less than equals.

I countered that by pointing out that it's obvious that any human being tends to prefer people who they consider similar to themselves. That's my main argument.

And if that is true, then attempting to frame such behavior as particular to white men is just silly and unproductive.

I obviously can't definitively measure the amount of social stigma around white male prejudice, but I don't need to. I'm not saying that white men are definitely less biased than other demographics, I'm merely pointing out that it's a distinct possibility, even as you all indicate that they are the demographic most deserving of condemnation for such behavior.

Now, one could make the argument that even though white men may not be especially biased, the effects of their bias may have greater impacts on other demographics due to the disproportionate amount of power they collectively wield. I think that's a fair point, but it doesn't really hold any ethical implications, it's simply a description of a material reality.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Personally I believe that large parts of this discussion and topic are simply human nature.

Any group with power, will seek to keep that power, and to increase their standing over the other people. If history had played out differently and asian or black people were the historical in-group we would have the exact same situations and issues as we have today. Only another enemy.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

If this is your main argument then:

...it’s obvious that any human being tends to prefer people who they consider similar to themselves.

Doesn't your paper you linked imply it isn't so obvious? I still stand by that it's not really relevant so I'll just say that I fully disagree with your argument or the implication that you have somehow proven anything.

I'll repeat something I said in another comment:

It is intentionally, intellectually dishonest and obtuse to pretend that condemnation of systemic problems resulting from unfair biases for/from certain demographics is as bad as the systemic problems in question.

You just pretend you are unaware of massive swaths of history in order to act offended that anyone would make generic statements about an infamously problematic demographic. And you falsely equate any attempt to talk generically about the problematic behaviour to the same issue, as a transparent tactic to suppress discussion of the problematic behaviour entirely.

I'm sure you will have some bullshit response that will annoy me again but I'm gunna try to let it go because I find talking to you unpleasant.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Doesn't your paper you linked imply it isn't so obvious?

Yeah sure, in the absence of any other data.

If you refuse to acknowledge that people like people similar to themselves, you're not being honest with yourself, let alone me.

What is the systemic problem/problematic behavior that you are trying to solve? You clearly believe that white men are especially discriminatory towards other groups, which isn't crazy, although I disagree. But are you so naive to think that if we replaced the powerful white men with powerful hispanic women (or any other combination of race and gender), racial and gender-based discrimination would suddenly end? I'm just pointing out the inconvenient truth that the system would still be biased and unfair, just with different winners and losers.

In my view, the fact that some white men are biased for or against certain groups is completely insignificant and irrelevant to solving the problems that society faces today. It's the fundamental structure of the economic and political system that naturally results in the few individuals at the top of the hierarchy expressing a large degree of control and domination over the rest of the society.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The idea that humans are inherently predisposed to subjugate those different from themselves is a fascist belief that fascists say to justify fascism. So.... Not a fan of that line of thought, thanks

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It has nothing to do with subjugation, it's just preference. I prefer to spend time with my family, I'm not subjugating other people by doing so.

But in the context of a corporate oligarchy where my absurd wealth means that my family is unfairly enriched to the detriment of the workers that I employ, it becomes subjugation. It's not humans, it's the socioeconomic system that exists that is causing all of this suffering and needs to be supplanted.

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Normally, I only comment when i have something to add, but I just want to commend you for your high quality contribution to this sensitive topic.

Really learning a lot from this. Your arguments are solid and your phrasing is respectful. Thank you!

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[–] Squirrelanna 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is news to me because I have been condescended to exponentially more as a decently passing white trans woman by cis white men in particular than I ever was before transition by ANYONE. Worst I ever got from black men was one calling me a "pretty thing" riding past on his bike. White men are getting the most push back as of late because they have historically been the worst offenders. And that hasn't changed yet. That doesn't mean the rest of us are free of guilt, but there is a very obvious frontrunner when it comes to unearned perceived self superiority, conscious or not.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I'm sorry that happened to you.

However, your anecdotal experience is just that. I have been subject to exponentially more racist abuse from black individuals than from individuals of any other race. Does that indicate to you that we should be "pushing back" against black racists? Obviously not, because my personal experience is not enough to draw any conclusions about society as a whole.

In fact, you're condescending me right now. You're implying that your personal judgment supercedes my rational argument. I provide sources and construct an argument, and you respond "this is news to me" (condescending and dismissing my argument) and proceed to explain that what I'm saying can't possibly be true, because it contradicts your personal viewpoint.

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[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago (2 children)

If the post said "a Black trans women interrupted me", would that be also fine, in your eyes?

[–] [email protected] 39 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Are Black trans women known for this kind of behaviour? Are there apologists for Black trans women who make every effort to miss the fucking point that there are people who think this isn't a thing that happens?

[–] [email protected] 30 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Nonody is "known" for that behaviour. You really just seem to ascribe personality traits to people based on their skin color. I thought we were long past that.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It is intentionally, intellectually dishonest and obtuse to pretend that condemnation of systemic problems resulting from unfair biases for/from certain demographics is as bad as the systemic problems in question.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago

Is that dog coming when you whistle?

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago

Are there apologists for Black trans women who make every effort to miss the fucking point

Oh, don't blame people. Don't bring irrelevant details if you don't want to distract them from the fucking point.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Are Black trans women known for this kind of behaviour?

The question suggests that Black trans women are all alike. It's exactly that kind of generalization that's being criticized.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

It would surprise me, but it would still be fine.

How many black trans women are in positions of authority? To not remark on that would be unusual. Mind you, the chances of a black trans woman making it to that kind of position and holding on to the kind of stupidity in the original post is pretty damn slim, hence the surprise.

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[–] [email protected] 77 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's a reminder than people that have always been in a privileged position often don't realize they do.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago

What privilege applies here?

[–] [email protected] 51 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Did you drop a /s? This is a funny meme, so I'm assuming I just missed a joke.

Right?

(Speaking as a white male, white male entitlement, and privilege for that matter, are incredibly relevant to white men being sexist/racist.)

(You can trust me on this because I'm a white male. Also, I'm used to my opinion being listened to, so I expect you to as well. Just FYI.)

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago

Nope, I wasn't sarcastic, I was slightly annoyed, annoyed enough to make rhe comment but not to maje a huge deal about it.

[–] [email protected] 45 points 1 year ago (1 children)

To emphasize the privilege this guy has.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago
[–] [email protected] 42 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

You're right, racism doesn't exist outside of America

[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Being white is a huge risk factor for unearned confidence. So is male. Being both just multiplies the chances.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Wow! This is like saying that if someone owns an axe, they are more likely to be a serial killer. If they also have rolls of black garbage bags, then its even more likely ...

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's such a straw man. You would have no trouble saying that if someone doesn't have an axe they are less likely to be an axe murderer

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

Sorry - what do you mean?

The fact that someone owns an axe and garbage bags, does nothing to their likelihood of them being a murder, just like being white and/or a male has nothing to do with the "risk of unearned confidence".

[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

In the US it's all about skin colour

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Or even the gender?

Edit: so... based on the downvotes this gets, its not OK for a male to interrupt but if it had been a female or other gender, then it would have been ok?

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Male and Female aren't genders, they're Sex, Words used to describe biological makeup of a living creature, for example XX Chromosomes are Female, XY Chromosomes are Male, but there are also instances where XXY Chromosomes can happen, and things get a little tricky.

Gender is what we use to tell children how to behave based on their genetalia and cause dysphoria in them when they don't want to do something but will get ostracized for doing what people with the other genetalia do.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Thanks. Its a bit confusing to me especially as a none English user. But your description of gender sounds negative. I assume a gender can be a neutral description of oneself? I am not sure.

My point here though is, that OP mentioning it was a male, is as irrelevant as their skin color. I dont see why it needs to be there when they dont add other irrelevant characteristics such as nationality, age, hair color etc.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

I would encourage you to do your own research regarding sex and gender. In many parts of the world, these terms are interchangeable. As they were in the US for many years, even after the term gender was popularized.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You know when the right looks at the left and calls us batshit? Your comment is shit they point to...

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

What's batshit about it? As a society we do exactly that, we tell boys to like blue and girls to like pink.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

There’s a lot more to sex than chromosomes. It’s probably better to say it’s clustering of positions on bimodal curves of traits. And even then you wind up with weird shit because biology really doesn’t like simple classifications. Like seriously there are so fucking many ways to be intersex and intersex people are downright common.

But also grammatically male and female when used to refer to humans are generally just the adjectives for man and woman.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

Also the gender?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

You can’t be racist against white, duh

Edit: nobody realized this was sarcasm

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