this post was submitted on 15 Dec 2024
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[–] [email protected] 19 points 5 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 17 points 5 months ago (2 children)

It is not the top one in the typical usage of the word "nuclear energy." Sure, it is nuclear energy, but that normally refers to electrical infrastructure, not nuclear weapons. Nuclear electricity is pretty much always just heating water up in a safe and controlled manner, and using that to spin a turbine.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 months ago (3 children)

Until something goes wrong and it is not safe and controlled anymore. You know, because of the whole exponential chain reaction thing.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 5 months ago (7 children)

So do you still believe in bloodletting to cure colds or the earth being 10,000 years old?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Sure, nuclear energy is valid and all, but you sound like an absolute spanner...

If you want to argue that nuclear energy has its place, maybe don't ridicule people who remember how much of an issue the last major nuclear meltdown was (and partially is).

[–] [email protected] 7 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Fukushima has barely any fall out though, does it. And the nuclear energy sector is moving towards even safer methods with SMRs that are self contained and just can't have a runaway reaction AFAIK

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago (3 children)

Can't have a runaways reaction like the Titanic was unsinkable.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Well there is a difference between marketing and physics

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

If you want a reaction that you can take energy away from the reaction, the reaction needs to create more energy than it needs to maintain itself. If you fail to take that energy away, the reaction will accelerate and your output will grow even further.

It is basic physics.

The only alternative would be to have an open system that runs on so little fuel that you need to feed it continuously. This has an entirely different level of problems, as now it will be impossible to contain the radiation to the reaction chamber and the containers of the spent fuel. Also with that you would need an entirely different design of how the radioactive material is held in place and how the reactions are controlled. The current way of adjusting how much you block with control rods probably won't work.

It is just impossible to have an exponential system like the nuclear reactions used in a reactor without active control measures. And active measures can fail.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago

A reactivity accident is a situation in which such a control device that absorbs neutrons malfunctions or is accidentally removed for some reason, causing a sharp increase in the nuclear reaction, leading to an output surge and sometimes a runaway reaction. Some SMRs, however, are not confined to the existing light water reactor (LWR) concept of ‘no fuel supply during operation’, but have the concept that fuel supply during operation is possible. Since such reactors are not overloaded with fuel, there is no possibility of a reactivity accident even if there is a failure in the control devices.

Page 4. Describing exactly what i said.

n Japan, where even at 30% power with zero coolant flow, the reactor shuts DON automatically without the insertion of control rods, and heat can be removed without mechanical means by radiation and natural convection to the water-cooled cooling panels outside the reactor. Figure 2.2 shows the results of the zero-coolant test.

The US metal-fuelled fast reactor, the Experimental Breeder Reactor-II (EBR-II, 19 megawatts electrical (MWe)), shows similar results to the above when the coolant flow is set to zero [..] Aurora (4 MWth) by Oklo, which applied for a Combined Construction and Operating License (COL) in 2020, has the same characteristics as the EBR-II.

Page 6, which refers to the graphic on page 7. So this only applies if the reactor was at around 30% or less of the design power output.

Meanwhile, the largest equipment in an NPP is the containment vessel. Containment vessels are generally much larger than reactor vessels. With a diameter of more than 10 m and a height of more than 30 m, they cannot be transported by ordinary means, such as by trucks on public roads. Although a containment vessel is important equipment for preventing the release of radioactive materials in the event of an accident, it is possible to have a design concept without a containment vessel if the NPP has other equipment that has equivalent functions or safety characteristics. The presence or absence of a containment vessel is another guideline for determining whether modularisation can be achieved.

Page 10.

Yeah great idea. This is Titanic all over again. We don't need a last resort because we have been so smart, that all preliminary features are deemed infaillable. A story as old as humans building complex technology.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago

i mean, the titanic was also definitionally, not unsinkable, they just called it that.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago (4 children)

But Fukushima did render a fairly large area uninhabitable, and the ongoing cleanup is still costing billions every year.

Also, there's still no solution to nuclear waste beyond burying it and hoping that no one digs it up.

Renewables exist, and, combined with upgrading the grid and adding sufficient storage facilities, can provide for 100% of electricity demand at all times. Without any of the risks associated with nuclear power (low as they may be, they exist), and without kicking a radioactive can down the road for hundreds of generations.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago

100% minus the energy requirements of AI 🫠

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago

Uninhabitable? Most of the evacuations were unnecessary, and there would have been less loss-of-life if most people sheltered in-place. In the year following the event, nearby residents received less than 20% of lifetime natural background radiation, about 2 chest CT scans, or a bit more than an airline crew, and less than a heavy smoker.

As for waste, dry casks are plenty good. The material is glassified, so it can't leach into ground water, and the concrete casing means you get less radiation by sitting next to one, as even natural background radiation is partially blocked. Casks are also dense enough for on-site storage, needing only a small lot to store the lifetime fuel use of any plant. A pro and a con of this method is that the fuel is difficult to retrieve from the glass, which is bad for fuel reprocessing, but good for preventing easy weapons manufacturing.

Meanwhile, coal pollution kills some 8 million people annually, and because the grid is already set up for it, when nuclear plants close they are replaced with coal or oil plants.

Upgrading the grid is expensive, and large-scale storage is difficult, and often untested. Pumped hydro is great for those places that can manage it, but the needed storage is far greater, and in locations without damable areas. Not only would unprecidented storage be necessary, but also a grid that's capable of moving energy between multiple focus points, instead of simply out of a plant. These aren't impossible challenges, but the solutions aren't here yet, and nuclear can fill the gap between decommissioning fossil fuels and effective baseline storage.

Solar and Wind don't have the best disposal record either, with more efficient PV cells needing more exotic resources, and the simple bulk of wind turbines making them difficult to dispose of. And batteries are famously toxic and/or explosive. Once again, these challenges have solutions, but they aren't mature and countries will stick with proven methods untill they are. That means more fossil fuels killing more people unnecessary. Nuclear can save those people today, and then allow renewable grids to be built when they are ready.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

My parents have witnessed not one but two nuclear catastrophes in their lifetime. Wtf are you talking about?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

how many cancers have they witnessed from the likes of coal power? Or things like asbestos? Shit like arsenic, or worse, lead. They probably have a significant IQ drop from leaded fuel, assuming they're american.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 5 months ago (2 children)

meltdowns do not resemble bombs at all. nor are they really possible either.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 months ago (4 children)

On a world where everybody is effraid of nuclear power, station safety is really overboard, and nuclear is super safe.

If everyone accepted nuclear power the same way we accept cars, then you can be sure capitalism would cut corners on nuclear safety...

(Source: many of my clients are nuclear power plants people)

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago (1 children)

sure, like corners are cut in every industry including renewables (which have a higher accident rate even). yes a nationalized nuclear power program is less perversely incentivised. if you look at countries where nuc is accepted more you wont find insane accident rates nor are plants bombs.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago (2 children)

I heard that Fukushima was problematic because non-engineers thought it would be easier cheaper?) to put some of the critical infrastructure near the sea rather than on the hill...

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago

I heard that Fukushima was problematic because non-engineers thought it would be easier cheaper?)

fukushima was problematic because literally everything in the chain of safety that should've happened, either didn't or was ignored, due to callous stupidity.

If literally any one thing had gone differently, there's a good chance it wouldn't have been that bad.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago

that is believable, no structures should have been where fukushima was nor with the lacking tsunami protections it had.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago

If everyone accepted nuclear power the same way we accept cars, then you can be sure capitalism would cut corners on nuclear safety…

and yet, cars keep getting safer, and safer every year, they also keep getting larger, and more expensive and harder to repair, but they do get safer.

Interesting.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

To be complete, you can't ignore the dangers of nuclear power plants in a war setting. It sucks but it is what it is.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

To be honest, every large power generation systems is critical is a war setting.... Don't tell them about hydro dams!

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago

Critical? Yes but there are a few different kinds of critical. Critical to the power supply? Ofc. Critical as in potential environmental disaster? Some, dams are 1 example.

Sometimes transportation is the cause of the potential of an environmental disaster like gas pipes. Those are a potential wildfire. Tbh, badly maintained high voltage over the ground wires have caused huge disaster too.

Energy is dangerous by nature. But some are more abusable and have longer term consequences than others. In a war setting, you have to assume abuse and plan with the consequences in mind.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaporizhzhia_Nuclear_Power_Plant_crisis it is a reality.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (6 children)

Station safety is so overboard, that we only had like three meltdowns or so, and only some hundreds of thousands of people killed by premature cancer deaths as a result of them and some million or so permanently displaced.

But surely after the next event we will have learned and then it will be totally safe. Like they said after Three Miles Island. And like they said after Chernobyl. And like they said after Fukushima.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

killed hundreds of thousands

more like a few thousand ever, if you are really really conservative tens of thousand, though the methodology to get there is unscientific. tmi killed nobody, fukushima will have killed nobody. meanwhile people falling off roofs installing solar or accidents working on wind are much more common. keep doing solar and wind, but your perception about nuclear is wholly irrational and unfounded.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Coal power plants release more radioactive waste in the environment than nuclear stations.

I'm not sure if this statistics includes meltdowns, but considering their rarity, it may still be true.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago

Which is why both technologies need to be abolished asap and replaced with cheaper and sustainable renewable energies.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Chernobyl was a ridiculous level of negligence on the part of the technicians working at a plant with a very unsafe design.

Fukushima was a reasonably safe reactor design with terrible (and noted as such decades before the meltdown) site designs which could be described as "designed to fail".

You could argue that lessons have been learned from both of those, and Three Mile Island, and safer designs are the result. Or you could argue that Fukushima clearly shows that people shouldn't be involved in such high-risk projects because they will cut corners that will inevitably lead to disasters. If the second is your stance, take a look around. There are plenty of projects with similar risks in other fields all the time.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago (1 children)

There are plenty of projects with similar risks in other fields all the time.

Then name three examples please, that have a Chernobyl level of risk.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago

Here's a list of industrial disasters. Take your pick of the ones that count as engineering or negligence (and Chernobyl was at least as much negligence as engineering) and tell me how many you get to.

Of course, we haven't discussed what kind of risk we're talking about. And is it better to have thousands of low-impact high-risk activities or one or two high-impact low-risk activities? Because, make no mistake, nuclear has cost less in human lives per unit of energy than any other power generation method we have. And hydroelectric has as profound an impact on the environment as nuclear fallout, it just tends to make some nice beaches and fishing so it isn't negative, right?

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

That must be why it's still advised to not collect and eat wild mushrooms in parts of southern Germany.

Also I didn't say they resembled bombs.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago

did i claim chornobyl didnt have any effects or are you just searching for stuff to argue about?

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