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submitted 1 year ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

I work with a person that went presented with a problem, works through it and arrives at the wrong solution. When I have them show me the steps they took, it seems like they interpret things incorrectly. This isn't a language barrier, and it's not like they aren't reading what someone wrote.

For example, they are working on a product, and needed to wait until the intended recipients of the product were notified by an email that they were going to get it. the person that sent the email to the recipients then forwarded that notification email to this person and said "go ahead and send this to them."

Most people would understand that they are being asked to send the product out. It's a regular process for them.

So he resent the email. He also sent the product, but I'm having a hard time understanding why he thought he was supposed to re-send the email.

I've tried breaking tasks down into smaller steps, writing out the tasks, post-mortem discussion when something doesn't go as planned. What other training or management tasks can I take? Or have I arrived at the "herding kittens" meme?

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[-] [email protected] 76 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

From the way this post is written, I think you don't realize how vague your communication style is. Too many possible interpretations of what you said makes it hard to even follow the story you laid out.

Who emailed who about what?

How did someone resend an email that someone else sent?

Re-sending would mean the same coworker sent the email twice.

On rereading, I think you meant that one coworker sent an email to the client, then another coworker that you are having trouble with also sent the same email to the same client.

So, to answer your question, I think they arrive at a different conclusion because they see things differently. Anything that can be interpreted differently will be interpreted differently. The other co workers think they're giving this person set values when in fact they're handing them a set of variables and expecting only one result.

[-] [email protected] 51 points 1 year ago

Have you considered events from their perspective? From what you've described, they were told to wait until a notification was sent, then they were given a notification with the instruction "send this". If it was me my first thought would absolutely be that that's the notification to be sent, the only reason I'd hesitate is because those sort of communications are well outside my job description.

The reason they sent the product afterwards is obvious; they were told to send them after the notification was sent, and they had sent the notification.

From what you've described, you are communicating incredibly poorly then blaming your workers for misunderstanding.

[-] [email protected] 26 points 1 year ago

Yes, it was too vague. OP may have set a tone that doesn't allow for clarifying questions, or the coworker honestly thought they were carrying out every step exactly as it was told to them and didn't see the need for clarification.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

I wasn’t directly involved in this example, so if the problem was with how I communicate it didn’t affect this situation.

I agree that the request was worded poorly but you correctly hesitated.

Unfortunately they seem to be the only one that has difficulty in asking questions when the instructions are unclear or outside the norm.

[-] [email protected] 44 points 1 year ago

I'll join the others here saying that it's very unclear what you're requesting, what your colleagues did, what they were supposed to do, and what actually happened.

It may serve you well to look inwards for a solution to your problem.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Vagueness was intentional.

In this case I was an observer, so my writing style didn’t affect the situation I had described. I’m also not the first to recognize this type of problem with the employee.

[-] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

You don’t think your writing style affects your workplace? If you are indeed the manager, you are tasked, among other things, with establishing the culture of the team.

[-] [email protected] 31 points 1 year ago

If the writing in the post is any indication of the level of writing and communication at work, OP needs to work on their communication skills.

[-] [email protected] 24 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Is he maybe just a really literal person and took the forwarded email with instructions "send THIS to them" as "send this email to them", but then he knows his work responsibility is to send the product, hence why he sent both the product and the email?

Do you have an SOP or exact steps to follow written down in a very clear, concise manner (yes, even something as simple as "after employee A sends the email, employee A will notify employee B to send out the product by forwarding the customer email to employee B"; I'm talking reaaaallly literal steps here)?

Can you give other examples of times he's messed up in a similar way?

Does he have poor reading comprehension? ADHD?

I train employees a lot in my current job and jobs prior and I've learned that everyone interprets things differently and learns at their own pace. Most times you can adapt to their style, but sometimes people are just mentally out to lunch 24/7 and not fit for the job.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Another example:

The product they were sending is only relevant to remote workers.

The product group they were to send it to consists of remote workers and in-office workers.

They are aware that the product they are sending is only for remote workers.

This isn’t the first time they have had to send something to only remote workers.

They sent it to all of them instead of only the remote workers.

While I concede that the instruction could have been worded better, they should have either known to send the product to the appropriate people or asked questions.

Others have said in this post that I need to improve my comms skills, but this person regularly mis-interprets things from everyone, including documentation and guides, and then executes without hesitation. So how do we fix the individual?

[-] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

It sounds like this person isn't remembering the procedures then, even when you've explained it to them and they've already done the task before (Or they're just a lazy fuck that doesn't care one way or the other and maybe never will). There is no "fixing" the individual, you need to correct their behavior while also giving them plenty of opportunity to get it right and with all the tools and guides they need readily available. How long have they been working in that position? Maybe they just need more time.

As others have stated, if the directions aren't already in writing, you should either write them down for the employee or, better yet, make the employee write them down, then review it for accuracy. This should in theory help them commit the process to memory, plus now they have their own guide to refer to.

Another bonus (for you, not the employee) of getting the process in writing is that if/when this person messes up again, now you have something to point back to and say "Remember when we went over this and you wrote it down and I verified that your notes were correct? Did you follow those notes this time? If yes, why did (mess up) happen anyway? If no, why didn't you follow the notes?" Make this person explain themselves, don't just sit there and be mad and say nothing to them.

This could also be a case of weaponized incompetence/ learned helplessness. If they fuck up a lot, you stop giving them work, but they're still there getting paid anyway, right? Now you're just paying them to either stand around or do menial tasks and not what you actually hired them for.

Start documenting their fuck ups, and tell them you're doing so. You're better off having a paper trail to point to when you have to fire them.

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[-] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

It may be that your comms skills are good enough for most people but not for this person. One option you have is to improve them even further so that it goes beyond being sufficient for the normal people, and also becomes sufficient for this person.

For example, I have never had my instructions misinterpreted. I am autistic. In my experience, both autistics and neurotypicals tend to interpret my instructions with zero difficulty.

I am saying this to indicate that it is possible to use language in a way that works even for the people who need extra precision.

In the scenario you described, the use of the word “this” in the “send this to them” instruction was a predictable failure point in the communication.

Eliminating that word from that communication would have prevented this issue.

If you want to change the individual, have them do significant working memory training. If you want to solve the problem, consider establishing and enforcing a higher level of disambiguity in office communications.

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[-] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago

Most people would understand

...and some people would not understand.

If you want that the other party understands, then you need to be specific.

[-] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

if others were regularly coming to me with questions about my direction I would agree with you. In this case I was an outside observer to how the situation transpired, and the individual seems to run into this problem with me and others.

[-] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

the individual seems to run into this problem with me and others

Of course he does. People are people. Some are this, others are that.

What is your question? Do you want to change the other person? It never works. You can only change your own part.

[-] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago

Might be a high functioning autist? If he got sent the notification email, he could interpret "go and send this" as what he is supposed to send, and thus the logic of shipping the product afterwards kicks in and he also sends that. Just my two cents as a fellow high functioning autist...

[-] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

But then why did he also send the product?

[-] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago

Because the product was supposed to wait until the email was sent. Email sent -> no problem, send the product next.

[-] [email protected] 23 points 1 year ago

Ah, so he was just following his set of the instructions. This situation is exactly why I teach students to always put some kind of noun after a "this," so that it is clear what "this" refers to.

[-] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

Thank you for pushing your students to do that.

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[-] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

This is simple, practical advice that I can use when instructing coworkers. Thank you!

[-] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Thank you for validating my method! I am so grateful for my own English teachers that I've over a decade spreading their knowledge.

[-] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Thank you! As an autistic person, I am serious in saying that your practice with your students is honestly the most helpful thing I’ve ever heard of a person doing for autistic people.

That is precisely what we most need: clear communication from others. With that, we can earn our own way. But we do need that.

[-] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Ahhh... You have no idea how awesome it feels to hear it's helpful. Only some teenagers are ready to hear it.

Clear, precise written communication helps everyone, and I love that I get to spend my time helping the next generation share their ideas in effective ways.

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[-] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

ETA: Apologies, I feel my lack of reading comprehension on this one deeply.

[-] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago

intended recipients of the product

Do you mean "the customer"?

The way you communicate (at least in English) is needlessly convoluted.

You already know they interpret your instructions incorrectly. You admitted yourself that, that is the problem. The solution in my world would be to give better instructions.

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[-] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

Have we started to get reddit style bait on lemmy now? There's no way someone can communicate so poorly in this and multiple responses while blaming someone else for not understanding.

It's pretty funny, I'll give you that.

[-] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I wish I knew. I have a coworker who flat out doesn't understand anything about his job and causes others to do all his work for him. He has been employed with us for a year and has barely improved. I personally would never give him a task because I know he'd fuck it up royally, causing a day task to be become a 5 day task while wasting hours of other people's time.

I have tried talking to managers about him and they won't listen. I cannot understand how he's not been fired. The motherfucker clearly is not working 90% of the time. His slack status shows him offline almost always, he doesn't respond to emails or GitHub notifications. He opens about 1 pull request per two weeks, and most of them have 50 or more comments from other developers pointing out the same mistakes he always makes. I think every single task he's successfully completed has been via pair programming, and when I've been involved it's been painful how little he gets. Baffling shit.

[-] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

I think I work with this guy.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Are you saying you're clueless or you work with the clueless guy?

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[-] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago

Not sure why so many people here comment that your communication style is vague.

Both instructions and issue are clear. Send product after notification was sent via mail. Colleague did that and aso sent the mail again, which had already been sent.

Why people are talking about the product being sent as the issue in thus scenario is beyond me.

As for a solution: Let them repeat back to you what they're supposed to do in their own words to verify you're both on the same page, before the do what they need to do.

If you have tried this unsuccessfully, I have no further suggestions without a whole lot more detail except for: ask theco worker in question how they would have phrased the task if they had given it to someone else. Try and learn what their style of communication is and adjust for that particular colleague.

[-] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

Though language is an effective means of communication, it's not perfect.

To use an example, there was a meme about a literature professor quoting from a book and telling students what the author meant by mentioning the curtains being blue in a scene. As they go on and on about the melancholy and sadness the author was known to experience at the time, Samuel L Jackson busts in through the door and yells "The color was blue because the curtains were blue, motherfucker!"

Or am I remembering it wrong? Anyway, language is open to interpretation and as such, people will interpret it openly.

[-] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

some people hate legalese, but after reading the situation, I think legalese is made for this sort of problems.

some people learn by example better than following instructions.

also context plays a lot when it comes to instructions. try to see things ahead if played in different contexts.

[-] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It's fine if they get it wrong, you explain how you actually wanted it so they understand and then get it right, sometimes you have to spell out what you mean.

If you explained and showed what you wanted and how, after their mistake, then a 2nd or 3rd time they screw up in the same way that's an issue. Words can mean different things to people.

If it's a different screw up each time, and they aren't intentionally being obtuse, then you could probably be clearer or explain yourself better.

[-] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

Saving this to see if there is an answer.

Side note : just my opinion, but some people will never understand basic logic.

[-] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Maybe try and see if they are suffering mentally? Mental illness like depression can slow down brain processes.

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this post was submitted on 15 May 2024
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