this post was submitted on 05 Jul 2024
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I wish I got to do fun little projects like this at my job. Anyway, this proof of concept shows that hydrogen would be a great alternative to propane and natural gas for cooking. Hat tip to @[email protected].

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[–] [email protected] 50 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (3 children)

Fun project! But replacing gas with hydrogen seems really tricky. Hydrogen is much harder to transport without leaks because it's such a tiny molecule. Electric seems better than trying to still burn hydrogen.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

The best way to store and transport hydrogen is to combine it with carbon so that it becomes a convenient liquid fuel. As a bonus, then you don't even need fuel cells to make electricity from it, but can instead simply burn it in something called an "internal combustion engine"

[–] [email protected] 24 points 9 months ago (1 children)

This is just synthetic fossil fuel with extra steps. Lol.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 9 months ago

Exactly.

Hydrogen is mostly a greenwashing scam; it isn't any better than what we already have.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

Nah, combustion engine is just one step up from the steam engine, such a wasteful technology, should long be in a museum.

First thing i think about in using a hydrogen-carbon fuel, is fuel cell (no better word for "Brennstoffzelle"?) to create electricity. Next up a steam turbine.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago

we do call them fuel cells

[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago (2 children)

As Toyota has demonstrated (and speaking from my own experience), it's not that tricky. As for cooking with the stuff, sometimes you just need portability and/or a flame. Electric is a poor choice in those cases.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 9 months ago (5 children)

Portability is hard for hydrogen since you hadn't liquify it without huge pressures and cryogenic temps, so you need big tanks. But cooking stoves does seem like a pretty good use case.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago (2 children)

I think the experts who believes in this technology know a bit more than you and me who only read a few wiki pages.

If money is going into this, they also have a believable plan. But big oil certainly want you to think otherwise.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Huh? It's big oil and the like who are pushing hydrogen over electricity.

And the problem with hydrogen is largely to do with the laws of physics, so it's unlikely to change soon.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago (3 children)

I don't understand this suspicion. It's easier to burn fossil fuels for electricity than to reform them into hydrogen.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Well yeah but they know their days of selling that are numbered, at least for lots of markets. If they can get people onto hydrogen they've got more money coming in for decades.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

That’s an appeal to authority fallacy if I’ve ever seen one.

They’re doing proof of concepts, not mass production. They’re at best answering is it possible, not is it a viable alternative.

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[–] [email protected] 50 points 9 months ago (1 children)

They’ll do anything not to build EVs /s

[–] [email protected] 11 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

TBH I respect Toyota for being realistic more than grifters like Musk. The fact is that car will never be a sustainable replacement for cars. They're here to save the auto cartels, not the planet.

But on the other hand public transit and LEVs are much more realistic. I would very much like to see a Toyota e-bike.

[–] [email protected] 29 points 9 months ago (7 children)

Sooo just cooking gas with more steps.

Oil industry loves pushing hydrogen but it's nearly all made from fossil fuels, so what benefit is there?

[–] [email protected] 12 points 9 months ago

Key words being “current supply”. There are major moves being made to change this. Supply and demand need to grow at the same time if this is to work though.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 9 months ago

Blue hydrogen is made by stripping the hydrogen from fossil fuel hydrocarbons (chains of hydrogen and carbon, hence the name), and sequestering the carbon. It produces a fuel that contains enough chemical energy to be burned as fuel, but without the carbon atoms that would turn into greenhouse gases.

Most hydrogen currently produced though, is gray hydrogen (made from natural gas, but without sequestering the carbon, so that CO2 is emitted into the atmosphere).

[–] [email protected] 7 points 9 months ago

The biggest use-case I see for hydrogen is more of an energy storage and transfer mechanism. With the world switching to renewables that generate power inconsistently, some countries are looking at putting the extra power into hydrogen generation via electrolysis, which can then be used at night/low-wind days to keep the power grid stable.

If we ever get to the point that we've got a surplus of renewably generated hydrogen, then it could make sense to start using to power cars, heating, cooking, whatever.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 9 months ago

Fossil fuels, including coal, are also used to produce electricity. They simply need to be prohibited or at least strictly rationed. Fortunately, hydrogen can be produced without emitting greenhouse gasses because it is still necessary for processes like steel and fertilizer production. It's also a practical replacement for fossil fuels in transportation and, as Toyota demonstrated, food preparation. As I replied to someone else, sometimes we need portability and/or a flame when it comes to cooking. Electricity just doesn't cut it in those cases.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago (1 children)

If the process to make hydrogen is clean, burning h is way way way cleaner. That's the math, not the source. The source can become an economics problem rather than necessarily an environmental one (imagine like 45 footnotes for where we do stuff that makes this not true, I'm just trying to capture the goal)

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago

Generate hydrogen at night from nuke plants.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Surely an oven that inherently steams everything it cooks is quite a different tool to a regular oven? It probably works well with breads and similar products, though, so I guess that'd work as a pizza oven

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

Burning methane also produces steam. Methane produces 891 kJ/mol, hydrogen 286 kJ/mol, methane has four hydrogen atoms that'd be 1144 kJ per what should the unit be in any case: Methane produces less heat per unit of produced water than hydrogen (the hydrogen first needs to get ripped off the carbon). Those ovens burn dryer than your current gas oven.

Never used steam when making pizza, they're not in there long enough for steam to make a difference. For bread it's indispensable to get a proper crust, though.

EDIT: Did I get moles right? It's been a while and I am no chemist.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Back in the early days of gas infrastructure, before wide-spread electrification, you know gas street lights and everything, the gas was produced by gasifying coal, resulting in gas that was often over 50% hydrogen, with only ~20% methane. Rest nitrogen and CO.

Natural gas has a methane content upwards of 75%, which meant that everyone had to switch out their burner nozzles but the rest of the infrastructure stayed intact.

All this is to say: Nothing about is really new or rocket science. Europe is certainly creating a backbone pipeline network for hydrogen, parts of it new pipes, other parts re-purposed natural gas pipes, many were built to a standard that allows them to carry hydrogen though some valves etc. might need upgrading. Some of those were originally built for hydrogen in the first place, and checking Wikipedia there's actually a 240km segment in the Ruhr area, built in 1938, still in operation, which always carried hydrogen. Plain steel but comparatively low-pressure so it works.

Oh and have another number: According to Fraunhofer, Germany's pipeline network can store three months of total energy usage (electricity, transportation, everything). Not in storage tanks, but just by operating the pipelines themselves at higher or lower pressure.

And we need that stuff one way or the other: Even if tomorrow ten thousand fusion plants go online that doesn't mean that the chemical industry doesn't need feedstock, or that reducing steel with electricity would make sense. Both of those things need hydrogen.

Fusion is still in the future so the plan is to import most of that hydrogen, mostly from Canada and Namibia, in tankers carrying ammonia which is way more efficient that trying to compress hydrogen also ammonia is needed for some processes anyway.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Hydrogen is so much smaller than natty light that on a Continental scale the losses could be significant, but that's neat history. It's fun how long stuff has been around like gasification.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (6 children)

From all that I've seen electricity lines (also HVDC) have higher transmission losses by a magnitude. With hydrogen and modern material science you'll probably have the choice between higher losses and embrittlement, but that's just another economical equation: Do you want to eat the higher losses, or replace the pipeline in a couple of decades or a century.

At least environment-wise hydrogen leaks aren't an issue: Some atoms diffusing through the wall don't constitute a fire hazard and the end result is water. Methane, OTOH, is a nasty greenhouse gas.

Speaking of nature: Ammonia is nasty, but nature produces it itself (just not at those concentrations) and can deal with it. The site directly surrounding a leak would be dead, a bit further downstream (literally) there's going to be over-fertilisation. Not nice but definitely better than an oil leak and fixing it quite literally involves waiting until grass has grown over it as rain dilutes it and microorganisms migrate back in to eat it. Similar things apply to ethanol which I'd say would be a better choice for general use such as hybrid cars, camping stoves and whatnot because it's not going to burn your lungs away. Can't rely on people being conscious enough to get up and flee the ammonia stench when they're in a car accident.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 9 months ago (3 children)

That's cool and all...but hydrogen isn't an energy source, not the way we use it...it's more like a battery. And we have battery powered ovens now.

The hard part of current tech is making recharging the battery economical given that there will be a significant loss.

The even harder part of hydrogen, though, is storing and transport. Hydrogen atoms are real small. Anything you put it in will leak, and that impacts the recharge efficiency, as well.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Toyota hopes you'll buy a hydrogen-powered car after grilling with a hydrogen barbecue

It will be the same as with lithium EVs. Hydrogen may be safer than IC, but once any explodes media will paint them as bombs driving on our roads

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago

That depends on how easy it is to deal with the explosion when it happens. The issue with lithium-ion is that they can't just be smothered like an ICE fire, so there's really nothing you can do once it starts. Also, ICEs don't spontaneously catch fire when parked in your garage, they tend to catch fire when you're driving, which means you're immediately aware when it starts to happen.

An EV catching fire while it charges at night is extra scary because I'm likely to be asleep, and therefore I'll have a smaller chance to react properly (especially if I need to run up/down stairs to round up small children). So even if it's less likely, it's potentially worse because I'm less likely to be able to get away from it safely.

I don't know much about what a practical hydrogen failure looks like, but my understanding is that it's quite violent. But maybe they have controls around that now, idk.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 9 months ago

The combustion product isn't likely to be a carcinogen. Safer to use indoors.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

What is this lighting called and why does it make my brain immediately think this image is AI?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago

I would call this "harsh" and indirect lighting with a shallow depth of field. It seems like a relatively low-light room, and there's tons of shadows making the images noisey. On cameras, the more you open the aperture to let more light in, the narrower your focus becomes. That's why there's so much blur or "bokeh" in the images.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Add a hydrogen generator and all you need is water and electricity to make the hydrogen. You don't even have to transport it.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 9 months ago (2 children)

I'd much rather transport a bottle of hydrogen to a cookout than an electrolyzer. What if a power outlet isn't available?

[–] [email protected] 14 points 9 months ago (1 children)

And I’d rather transport a cheap and widely available propane tank instead of an ultra high pressure hydrogen canister that can only be refilled at 3 places in the entire state.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Yes, but imagine a world where propane and other fossil fuels are no longer available. You're going to lug a big battery around for an electric grill instead?

For what it's worth hydrogen stations currently dispense at 10,000psi, which is considered "medium" pressure in the field. "Ultra high" pressure is considered an order of magnitude greater.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago (2 children)

Yeah batteries would probably work. A large battery bank can have 1kwh of capacity, and induction stoves are about 1.5kw. Which means you could run a stove for about 40min. You could bring more for longer. I'm sure by the time you can't get propane, batteries will have gotten much better too.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 9 months ago (6 children)

Hydrogen is very difficult to bottle. It tends to just slip out of anything you put it in because of how small the atoms are.

And also incredibly low density. So your bottle would likely be on a trailer.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Toyota builds Phillip Jeffries and found he doesn’t want to talk about Judy. He doesn’t want to talk about Judy at all

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