I think most snap haters mostly hate, that Canonical forces snap upon them, an wouldn't hate so much about it if they had the choice.
this post was submitted on 20 Sep 2024
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Yeah, who'd hate using a package manager that increasingly slows down your boot time with every package installed, or that uses a closed source store to provide you FOSS
Maybe there's a reason canonical has to force it on their users
I also hate that it creates a loopback device for every installed snap
Yeah typing "apt install firefox" and getting the Snap version does loudly and obnoxiously disqualify Ubuntu from any devices owned by me or my family.
Isn't that kinda the same with, for example, Fedora and Flatpaks? Or Debian and debs? Or Ubuntu and debs? Or Fedora and rpms?
The packaging system that your distro provides gets you the packages you get. For a small number of packages that were a maintenance nightmare, Ubuntu provides a transitional debs to move people over to the snaps (e.g. Firefox, Thunderbird), but if you want to get it from another repo, you can do exactly what KDE Neon does by setting your preferences.
No, Debian doesn't take your apt install ... command and install a snap behind your back...
I don't understand how a transitional package that installs the snap (which is documented in the package description) is any different from a transitional package that replaces, say, ffmpeg with libav.
$ apt show firefox
Package: firefox
Version: 1:1snap1-0ubuntu5
Priority: optional
Section: web
Origin: Ubuntu
Maintainer: Ubuntu Mozilla Team <ubuntu-mozillateam@lists.ubuntu.com>
Bugs: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+filebug
Installed-Size: 124 kB
Provides: gnome-www-browser, iceweasel, www-browser, x-www-browser
Pre-Depends: debconf, snapd (>= 2.54)
Depends: debconf (>= 0.5) | debconf-2.0
Breaks: firefox-dbg (<< 1:1snap1), firefox-dev (<< 1:1snap1), firefox-geckodriver (<< 1:1snap1), firefox-mozsymbols (<< 1:1snap1)
Replaces: firefox-dbg (<< 1:1snap1), firefox-dev (<< 1:1snap1), firefox-geckodriver (<< 1:1snap1), firefox-mozsymbols (<< 1:1snap1)
Task: ubuntu-desktop-minimal, ubuntu-desktop, kubuntu-desktop, kubuntu-full, xubuntu-desktop, lubuntu-desktop, ubuntustudio-desktop, ubuntukylin-desktop, ubuntukylin-desktop, ubuntukylin-desktop-minimal, ubuntu-mate-core, ubuntu-mate-desktop, ubuntu-budgie-desktop-minimal, ubuntu-budgie-desktop, ubuntu-budgie-desktop-raspi, ubuntu-unity-live, edubuntu-desktop-gnome-minimal, edubuntu-desktop-gnome, edubuntu-desktop-gnome-raspi, ubuntucinnamon-desktop-minimal, ubuntucinnamon-desktop
Download-Size: 77.3 kB
APT-Manual-Installed: no
APT-Sources: http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu noble/main amd64 Packages
Description: Transitional package - firefox -> firefox snap
This is a transitional dummy package. It can safely be removed.
.
firefox is now replaced by the firefox snap.
Well, that's your problem for not understanding the massive difference, not mine.
If you don't want to explain, you're perfectly welcome to not explain. But saying what amounts to "if you don't know I'm not telling you", especially when you weren't specifically asked, is a pretty unkind addition to the conversation.
One selects a different package, same source repo.
The other completely changes the installation, invisibly to the user, potentially introducing vulnerabilities.
Such as what they did with Docker, which I found less than hilarious when I had to clean up after someone entirely because of this idiocy.
The differences seem quite clear.
In both cases, the packages are owned by the same people? (Fun fact: mozilla actually owns both the Firefox snap and the firefox package in the Ubuntu repos.) I'm non sure how that "potentially introduces vulnerabilities" any more than "having a package which has dependencies" does.
I'm not sure what you're referring to with Docker. Canonical provides both the docker.io package in apt and the docker snap. Personally I use the snap on my machine because I need to be able to easily switch versions for my development work.
Because the separate installation means you can actually end up with both an apt installed and a snap installed.
My comment about docker was a specific example of such a case, where vulnerabilities were introduced. It was actually a commonly used attack a few years ago to burn up other CPU and GPU to generate crypto.
Yes, canonical provides both. Guess what? They screwed up, and introduced several vulnerabilities, and you ended up with both a snap and apt installed docker.
The fact that they are both packaged by Canonical is both irrelevant and a perfect example of the problem.
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the thing people dislike about that is that you're silently moved from an open system to a closed-source one.
Debian's .deb hosting is completely open and you can host your own repository from which anyone can pull packages just by adding it to the apt config. fedora, suse, arch, same thing.
only Canonical can host snaps, and they're not telling people how the hosting works. KDE seems to upload their packages to the snap store for Neon, judging from their page.
also, crucially, canonical are not the ones doing the maintenance for those apt packages. the debian team does that.
the thing people dislike about that is that you're silently moved from an open system to a closed-source one.
Yeah. I didn't realize I had fallen for it until I tried to automate a system rebuild, and discovered that a bunch of the snap back end seems to be closed and proprietary.
And a lot of it for no reason. Reasonable apt and flatpak alternates existed, but Canonical steered me to their closed repackaged versions.
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Fedora with Flatpaks is open and up front about whether you're getting a Flatpak or a system installed package, and lets you choose if both are available. And installing through dnf/yum isn't going to do anything at all with Flatpak.
And what about Debian with debs? That's literally what apt was designed to work with. If it gave you Flatpaks, or the flatpak command installed debs, that would be more like what Ubuntu is doing.
The fact that Canonical shoehorned snaps into apt is the problem. I've heard bad things about snap, but I wouldn't know because I've never used it, and I never will because of this.
When I tell my computer to do one thing and it does something completely different without my consent, that is a problem, and is why I left Windows. I don't need that in Linux too, and Canonical has proven they can't be trusted not to do that.
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Thanks to snap I switched to arch. It gave a linux beginner so much drive to learn the terminal and install a harder os lol. The firefox snap was the worst shit.
I never used snap, always use official repo > multilib > extra > chaotic aur > aur > flatpak > FUCK IT, I BUILD FROM SOURCE CODE FROM SHADY GITHUB REPO
FUCK IT, I BUILD FROM SOURCE CODE FROM SHADY GITHUB REPO_*
I feel seen.
Thread made by canonical employee
Lol imagine a canonical employee using nixos
People using Linux should take their heads out of their asses sometimes and just let people enjoy things they way they prefer.
Fuckin preach it friend!
That's the joy of Linux, the "have it your way" approach to an OS
yeah well, you can't have it your way on Ubuntu when Canonical FORCES you to use snaps (heck they even hacked apt to prefer snaps instead of debs)
These are two incredibly persistent pieces of misinformation...
- Canonical provides snaps for Ubuntu. This is no more "forcing" you to use snaps than they force you to use debs, or than Fedora forces you to use flatpaks/rpms.
- Apt doesn't "prefer snaps" by any means. Canonical provides transitional packages for certain packages that got migrated from debs to snaps, but the steps for using another apt repository to replace one of these transitional packages are the same as the steps for replacing any other package provided in your base repos with one from a different repository: You add the other repository, and you tell apt to prefer that repository for the specific packages.
If that is true, then why are deb packages provided by Canonical for Ubuntu dummied out?
Canonical FORCES you to use snaps, there is no other way to look at this.
They do not prevent you from adding repos and installing from those. They don't even try to make it slightly more difficult to do so than it was before. Microsoft force you to use edge. Cannot really disable it. Can't remove it. Can't simply switch away from it. See the difference?
I haven't kept up with Edge Shenanigans since I no longer use Windows, but the last time I used it I had no issues using Firefox instead of Edge.
Yeah sure you can add repositories to replace Canonical Sources to evade those dummied out packages, but you really really shouldn't need to do that in the first place.
So the only difference is: MS enforcement is more stringent than Canonical, but they both force their respective ways onto the user (which may or may not versed enough to actually add/remove apt repositories).
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Canonical provides transitional packages for packages that they've decided to provide as snaps. They're not forcing anyone to use snaps, they're saying "if you want the default we provide you, we're providing you with a snap." KDE Neon (my current distro, which is downstream of Ubuntu) has decided that they want to use the deb packages from packages.mozilla.org, so they provide an override. If you want to use the deb from packages.mozilla.org, you could grab KDE Neon's repository deb and install that, or just set up the mozilla repository and use the same pin file they already have.
This is like saying "Debian FORCES you to use libav" Debian moved from ffmpeg to libav for a while. No, they provided libav and made transitional packages for this drop-in replacement. Some people didn't like that and made their own ffmpeg repos, and the process for using their separate ffmpeg rather than Debian's transitional packages was the same as the process for using Firefox from a different repository. (I was one of the people used some third-party ffmpeg repositories, and I was glad when they switched back to ffmpeg and provided libav to ffmpeg transitional packages.)
Does the fact that the Ubuntu repositories don't contain Keysmith mean "Ubuntu PROHIBITS you from using Keysmith?"
Canonical provides transitional packages for packages that theyβve decided to provide as snaps. Theyβre not forcing anyone to use snaps, theyβre saying βif you want the default we provide you, weβre providing you with a snap.β
Uhm... and why does the user have to transition to snaps? Why does Canonical provide those transitional packages while there are perfectly valid debs for the same thing? Certainly not because they have a vested interest in forcing it right?
you instantly refute yourself, kudos!
Uhm⦠and why does the user have to transition to snaps?
They don't. But Canonical will no longer be providing debs in primary Ubuntu repositories, so those transitional packages exist so that users don't wind up with an abandoned, old version of Firefox.
Why does Canonical provide those transitional packages while there are perfectly valid debs for the same thing?
For the same reason neither Ubuntu nor Debian provide debs for Google Chrome, despite Google having an official apt repository? Those debs exist in somebody else's apt repository. If you want to add that apt repository, you're welcome to. But those external packages aren't part of the system they provide.
you instantly refute yourself, kudos!
Your unwillingness to accept what I'm saying doesn't make what I'm saying contradictory.
They donβt. But Canonical will no longer be providing debs in primary Ubuntu repositories
so they are forcing the users to adopt snaps.
If I were giving you β¬50/month, and then one day I decided to give you USD$55 instead, am I "forcing" you to accept US currency? No, I'm choosing to give you something I don't have to give you in the first place in a different form. You can always reject my offer. You can ask someone else to give you β¬50/month.
They're choosing how they want to provide Firefox. If anyone else wants to provide Firefox differently, Canonical isn't stopping them. In fact, Canonical literally hosts and does the builds for an unofficial Firefox repo with their free Launchpad service.
Distributions decide what they want to package and how to package it all the time. Pretty much every time, someone is upset. But that upset is generally based on an unreasonable sense of entitlement.
If I were giving you β¬50/month, and then one day I decided to give you USD$55 instead, am I βforcingβ you to accept US currency?
Yes, you are literally forcing me to accept your dollarinos, which, unless I exchange them MYSELF, are USELESS!
You provided me, until an arbitrary cutoff day, always the negotiated currency (deb package) but then you, out of the blue, decide to change it to your currency (snap package).
If Canonical want to do their own package, why donΒ΄t they just make a new branch and ditch Debian all together? I am not aware of ANY downstream distribution to ditch their upstream's package format, except Ubuntu. Well and those that lie underneath Ubuntu and ditch snap for the super upstream's (debian) package format.
You can always reject my offer. You can ask someone else to give you β¬50/month.
so either suck it up to Canonical, or go to another distribution provider? Thats your solution to your not perceived enforcement of snap?
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You're still missing the point.
and what point would that be? That you can't have it your way, actually?
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Heck yeah! There's so much gatekeeping and tribalism that it kinda sucks out the joy a little bit
It's a shame that snaps are forced to use Canonicals closed source backend because they are really good, and a fully snap system is a very compelling idea for immutable systems
They're not forced to do so. You can install snaps locally (or provide a distribution system that treats snapd much the way apt treats dpkg), or you can point snapd at a different store. The snap store API is open and documented, and for a while there was even a separate snap store project. It seems to have died out because despite people's contention about Canonical's snap store, they didn't actually actually want to run their own snap stores.
Snap is bad. I only say this as someone who did a lot of OS security work for Linux and Unix, so take that with a grain of salt.
Would you mind explaining why? I'm genuinely curious
I have NODE installed using snap lmao. Why? Installing it the normal way just gives me tons of errors that I'm too bored to deal with. I'm sure there's a fix, but I'm too lazy to debug all that. Of course, I don't use snap node for hosting servers and stuff. I just use it for react native. Regardless, it works n I'm happy lol
Yeah. I don't mind snap at all for cases where a better package doesn't exist.
What made me give up Ubuntu was how it railroaded me into snap versions of packages that work better, for me, as native .deb installs.
Oh definitely. Canonical forcing us to use snap Firefox was very shitty. I mean I still use Ubuntu because I'm lazy, but I did change the snap Firefox thing to the apt libraries or whatever.
I really don't understand why they don't just adopt flatpak.
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I use nix like the AUR for debian.
snap bad indeed