this post was submitted on 27 Oct 2024
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[–] [email protected] 229 points 5 months ago (61 children)

I just don't get how people are looking at Harris' stance as being pro-genocide. Biden is the President and historically, foreign policy during the tenure of the President by the Vice President doesn't veer too far off from the President. That said, Harris has absolutely called for investigation into the suffering of civilians in the conflict.

Congress sets the budgetary amount of aid to direct to Israel and the President distributes the money via their diplomatic channels. There are very few options for the President to just suspend funding, which Biden has done twice for weapons under the rules established within 10 USC § 362 (a)(1)

Of the amounts made available to the Department of Defense, none may be used for any training, equipment, or other assistance for a unit of a foreign security force if the Secretary of Defense has credible information that the unit has committed a gross violation of human rights.

But outside that, there's very little the President can do once Congress approves funding and that funding has been signed into law. This is why an independent channel investigation is required and is exactly what Harris has called for. This would allow the the US Government to establish their own inquiry into the human abuses. This would give the required evidence to cancel funding under Title XII authority. But none of that can happen overnight. It's not an easy path to override the will of Congress.

On the opposite side, Trump has indicated that he will absolutely turn a blind eye to the whole thing and allow Israel to determine solely the "best" course of action for their current conflict. Trump has literally stated in his rallies:

From the start, Harris has worked to tie Israel's hand behind its back, demanding an immediate cease-fire, always demanding cease-fire

Trump would not see a cease-fire as a required condition for the on-going conflict.

Harris and Democrats historically have called for a two-state solution. Trump's plan which has been broadly adopted by the Republican party in general would:

  • Give Palestinians only about 15% of their original territory
  • Jerusalem would become Israel's undivided capitol, meaning all claims by the Palestinians to the eastern half of the city would be tossed out.
  • Allow Palestinians to "achieve an independent state" via a means that is not clearly defined in the plan but indicated that Israel would have a final say in that process.
  • "No Palestinians or Israelis will be uprooted from their homes" indicating that the territory that Israel has already colonized from their current conflict would become Israel's.
  • Would put Israel and Jordan on equal footing for the administration of al-Haram al-Sharif, which will absolutely ignite a conflict.
  • Any territory allocated to Palestinians would have to undergo a four year "wait" period, but there's no protections from Israel obtaining that territory if done so during conflict. So Israel could provoke someone to fight them and that would give them justification to take the land during this "four year wait period".

Trump has all but given up completely on a two-state solution. Which means, he's for a one state solution. And people are fooling themselves if they believe that Trump would seek a "peaceful" one state solution. He has told Netanyahu directly, "Just get it done quickly". Now we can play a game as what manner is used to "get it done quickly" means, but only idiots are the one's thinking that doesn't give a tacit nod to ethic cleansing.

I just have no idea what these people who think Harris is a bad idea for Palestinians are actually thinking. And really, I don't think they are thinking at all. You have one solution that is long, stupid, and required because we are a nation of laws. And you have the other solution that is "fuck it, firebomb them all and call it done". It is difficult to imagine that there are truly people this blind and ignorant to this reality. But yet, here we are.

The notion that we might get a 3rd party into office like twenty years from now if we start today, helps nobody if the people we're trying to help are all eradicated over the next four years. Going down this "third road" only ensures an outcome where we are fifteen years too late to help.

[–] [email protected] 80 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (8 children)

It makes no sense, but have you considered the possibility that most people pushing that narrative are Russian assets trying to get Trump elected?

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[–] [email protected] 55 points 5 months ago (28 children)

I just have no idea what these people who think Harris is a bad idea for Palestinians are actually thinking. And really, I don’t think they are thinking at all.

They live in cloud cuckoo land where Biden/Harris can just tell Netanyahu "Fuck off and shove a grenade up your arse, you genocidal maniac" and that would actually work.

[–] [email protected] 45 points 5 months ago (5 children)

They believe in Schrodinger's Jew: that Jews simultaneously control US politics and that US Presidents control Israel.

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[–] [email protected] 35 points 5 months ago (20 children)

In really it's probably a mix that totals to around 90% of the people making these pronouncements are either bots, paid trolls from enemy nations, nihilists, or the equivalent. The remaining 10% probably have a genuine belief that voting for Harris makes them complicit in the genocide the Israeli government and its military are committing. They're incorrect, on many levels, but that is probably their genuine belief.

We must always vote for the lesser evil because that's what the real world is, from the most negative point of view: reducing evil and suffering. We know some of the things we're doing today will be seen as evil by our progeny. We don't know others.

A Harris administration will be the most likely to reduce the suffering of Palestinians, the most likely to force the Israeli government and military to end the genocide, and the most likely to make real strides toward middle east peace.

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[–] [email protected] 159 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (45 children)

im convinced at this point that the "don't vote or you support genocide" thing is a russian troll campaign

[–] [email protected] 34 points 5 months ago (6 children)
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[–] [email protected] 34 points 5 months ago (18 children)

Been saying it for weeks. Nobody with half a brain would fall for that shit.

A vote against Harris is a vote against protecting America. That may not be true next election(fuck, I hope it's not), but right here...right now....it's true.

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 5 months ago (34 children)

The genocide will continue no matter who wins. The argument is dumb.

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 5 months ago (1 children)

That's been my experience on Lemmy recently too. It feels like there is a push to disenfranchise to "teach them a lesson we dont support genocide by ensuring a somewhat more genocidal maniac gets in instead".

I get the sentiment, but it ignores the two party system, and not voting does not fix that broken system, it ensures it. And I think the trolls know this too.

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[–] [email protected] 105 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Single-issue voters are ignorant to begin with, but failing to help stop another Trump presidency isn't the moral high ground. If you're in that group there's no point polishing your halo, because you are shitting on it.

[–] [email protected] 29 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (11 children)

So genocide is a single issue to you, like school vouchers or fema funding? I think that says a lot about you. None of it good.

edit: and please, downvote away if you dont agree, But notice how close the election is and how many upvotes this viewpoint has. 28 up to 70 down is what I see at this point. If Harris loses it will be because she flatly ignored this ~30% of of Dem voters.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 5 months ago (18 children)

So genocide is a single issue to you, like school vouchers or fema funding?

Hey now. Vote for Kamala and you can get genocide, school privatization, and more underfunded climate disasters. You don't have to choose.

Dems of 2024 have fully ingested the Republican platform of 2004. That's why the Cheneys are campaigning for the Harris ticket.

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[–] [email protected] 22 points 5 months ago (10 children)

Single-issue voters are ignorant

I think killing is wrong. Feel free to call that ignorant.

[–] [email protected] 63 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (72 children)

Trump told bibi to "hurry up and finish the job. He will kill 10x as many Palestinians and say they deserved it.

He has also promised to "round up millions of illegals" in the US and put them in camps, itself a genocide. He will undoubtedly kill thousands doing it.

He also stated that he will use the military to eliminate " the enemy within," who he specially called leftists like yourself. He will kill people in the process.

Your choice should be pretty clear if you abhor killing.

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[–] [email protected] 98 points 5 months ago (30 children)

I knew all these single issue fake leftists were full of shit when it was revealed that Trump has been sabotaging peace talks and they weren't immediately outraged by that revelation.

Nah, they all have a political objective, and it doesn't involve peace in the middle east. Their objective is to use genocide as a political wedge to divide the left and get Trump elected.

[–] [email protected] 35 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (11 children)

I’m a leftist. I don’t want you to change whoever you’re voting for, vote what you feel is right.

What I do want you to do is be honest. I believe that the only way we can fix things is to admit the reality of the situation that we’re in.

I want you to admit that you’re voting for a genocidal candidate. Because either way if you’re voting Trump or Harris, you’re voting a genocidal candidate.

Once you can admit that, then we can start thinking about fixing it.

If you’re just going to shove your head in the sand and refuse to acknowledge your complicity in the system, then you are a slave to it.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 5 months ago (17 children)

I have not seen many leftists not agree that both votes are for genocide - that's just a given.

But protesting the system during the election is daft. Do you want genocide, or more genocide? You are not a slave to the system if you vote and then actually do something about it to change it.

Ignoring the current system is plain ignorance. Voting doesn't make you a slave. Voting and giving up makes you a slave. How about vote and campaign for change instead. Despair does not lead to change.

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[–] [email protected] 31 points 5 months ago (11 children)

I knew all these single issue fake leftists were full of shit when it was revealed that Trump has been sabotaging peace talks and they weren’t immediately outraged by that revelation.

Why would anyone even be surprised by that? We're mad because Democrats see what's happening between Trump and Netanyahu and are doing what Netanyahu wants anyway.

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[–] [email protected] 96 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Hey look, Bernie right on it. Again.

[–] [email protected] 54 points 5 months ago (1 children)

You think he ever gets tired of being right all the time?

[–] [email protected] 34 points 5 months ago

He probably gets tired of so many others being more popular and more incorrect.

We need a whole senate of inter generational Bernies.

[–] [email protected] 83 points 5 months ago (10 children)

Where where these people of moral conscience when Bernie had a shot?

it's not like this shitshow sprung up overnight.

[–] [email protected] 43 points 5 months ago (1 children)

They voted for Hillary, because the party decided it was her turn and made everyone else drop out and endorse her.

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[–] [email protected] 46 points 5 months ago (34 children)

The idea that not voting is some form of protest that has material consequences for the ruling class is ahistorical. It took centuries of struggle to attain universal suffrage. The people in power are perfectly happy to have only a small fraction of the demos exerting any political power at all; in fact this is how most civilizations have functioned for the past few thousand years.

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[–] [email protected] 41 points 5 months ago (5 children)

God forbid Biden/Harris actually change their handling of Israel.

They always expect the millions of voters to change rather than the dozens of politicians to change to align with the voters.

[–] [email protected] 44 points 5 months ago (8 children)

Biden is in charge right now, not Harris.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 5 months ago (14 children)

I think she will change things, but can't really speak out like she would probably want being she is Biden's VP. Either way, Trump will only make things worse.

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 5 months ago

And she explicitly said that she wouldn't change anything

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[–] [email protected] 37 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (6 children)

Yes, Trump is even worse. But killing innocent people is still so bad that I am harmed by it being politically acceptable.

If politics is killing innocent people more nicely ('yeah, that's bad, but it just happens') or more nastily ('haw haw stupid children'), I no longer care about politics.

[–] [email protected] 86 points 5 months ago (92 children)

Let's say Trump gets elected, and ten years from now, some kid asks you, "What did you do to prevent this?"

Are you going to tell them you just didn't care enough to bother?

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[–] [email protected] 30 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Look, maybe they just don't know how this will play out. By all means let them trade their vote away for teh feelz and directly condemn an entire countries residents to death.

Trust me bro, they care a ton about Palestine, they aren't using civilian deaths to leverage any political bullshit I swear.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 5 months ago (32 children)

Democrats have taken the stance that it’s absolutely UNTHINKABLE that they could possibly not support a genocide, instead full bore opting that the other side’s genocide support is somehow worse. Man, fuck these people so hard.

[–] [email protected] 37 points 5 months ago (4 children)

Like it or not, a significant portion of the country is in favor of supporting Israel, and so they have to walk the line of supporting Israel without supporting genocide, because if they don't they also lose.

Republicans can campaign on being pro-genocide, give weapons to Israel on the condition they use them with less discretion, and make a campaign promise to deny asylum to any refugees and they don't lose a vote.
Democrats have to support Israel and Palestine, which is nearly impossible to do without a degree of "please don't use this gun wrong like you have every other time".

If you actually don't see how a Republican administration would be vastly worse for Palestinians, I don't know what to tell you.

https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/majority-in-u-s-say-israel-has-valid-reasons-for-fighting-fewer-say-the-same-about-hamas/

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 5 months ago (6 children)

Bernie was against a ceasefire for at least three months. He claimed Israel has the right to defend themselves.

Bernie is responsible for manufacturing the consent that let the genocide continue this long.

Now it is coming back to bite the Democrats. And all Bernie can say is "Trump is worse". Take a hike old man.

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[–] [email protected] 22 points 5 months ago

Trump is 100x worse. Liberals might be in bed with conservatives on 90% of issues, but fascists actually want to use the military against us.

I upset people when I reject the idea that we are voting to save democracy because I believe the US's two party system is an insult to every ideal that democracy stands for, but I am still voting for Harris. Vote to save our country from fascism. Vote to keep your friends and family from being rounded up for supporting Healthcare for all.

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