this post was submitted on 18 Feb 2025
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A decision to negotiate over the heads of the Ukrainians would reveal just how Trump sees Ukraine and Europe.

Archived version: https://archive.is/newest/https://theconversation.com/ukraine-isnt-invited-to-its-own-peace-talks-history-is-full-of-such-examples-and-the-results-are-devastating-250049


Disclaimer: The article linked is from a single source with a single perspective. Make sure to cross-check information against multiple sources to get a comprehensive view on the situation.

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[–] [email protected] 64 points 1 month ago (3 children)

The article only summarizes it shortly, but the parallels to the Munich Agreement from 1938 are really scary.

Hitler's aim was to take over all of Czechoslovakia by breaking it apart. The subject of the Munich Agreement was the Sudetenland, the region bordering Germany. Before there were some votes and local political forces expressing the wish of the German minority in the Sudetenland to create an independent state (See the parallels with DNR, LNR and Crimea). This was used by Hitler to justify taking over the region. Suddenly it wasn't about independence anymore, but about inclusion into Germany.

The Czechoslovakian government in Prague obviously hated the idea, but they were not invited to the talks in Munich. Only afterwards were they made aware of the decision that would be imposed on their nation. Who was invited was fellow fascist Mussolini from Italy, as well as France and UK, who gave in and signed this agreement, giving international support to Germany just taking over parts of neighboring nations.

Their reasoning was, if they were to disagree, Hitler would assert his will by force and take Czechoslovakia militarily, starting a large European war (that is also the reason Prague was forced to accept the decision: the alternative was a war they could never win, they could not count on any outside help). This was the so-called appeasement policy by the UK. They bought "peace" in exchange for territories they didn't own but felt the right to decide over. We all know how this heavily-priced peace turned out. At most it gave the allied forces one more year to prepare for WWII.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 month ago

I see a better parallel with the partition of Poland in Molotov-Ribbentrop pact with these talks. The Munich Agreement was the Minsk agreements and letting russia have Crimea.

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[–] [email protected] 40 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

This isn't a peace deal, this is a conspiracy. Ukraine has zero obligation to accept any of this. However they will have to start making considerations about a Polish Underground state type of ordeal. This fighting is not going to stop for a decade more. The region is going to resemble fucking Afghanistan.

. Russia has no intention of stopping and they might as well tell MAGA to go fuck themselves, and Europe better get ready to join.

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[–] [email protected] 35 points 1 month ago (2 children)
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[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 month ago (1 children)

This isn't a peace agreement, this is a rehabilitate Russia agreement.

The whole goal is for Trump to run cover for Putin and say" if you do this we'll remove all the sanctions", all the while not changing the ground war at all. (And probably throw sanctions on Ukraine at the same time).

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 month ago (1 children)

there isn't enough rope in the world for the reckoning that's warranted.

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

It isn't a peace deal.

It is a deal to bully someone else together.

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 month ago (3 children)

I don't think Ukraine will get Donbas and Crimea back. The Donetsk & Luhansk republics would violently resist any attempt by Kyiv to absorb them back into Ukraine.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 month ago (9 children)

The Donetsk & Luhansk republics would violently resist any attempt by Kyiv to absorb them back into Ukraine.

LOL

You know that whole rebellion thing was created by Russia right?

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (4 children)

It's funny to me how both sides say this about the other. There were two rebellions in Ukraine backed by foreign powers, and which one you think is legitimate and which one was created by foreign meddling doesn't seem to have anything to do with any facts on the ground, it's entirely about which global hegemon you support.

In reality, both the succession movement and Euromaidan involved a combination of foreign agitation and popular support, and it's nowhere near as black and white as either side pretends.

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 month ago (12 children)

that is because zelensky and europe don't want peace.

[–] [email protected] 107 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Ukraine already made peace when they gave up their nuclear weapons in exchange for Russia's promise that they would respect Ukraine's sovereignty in the Belarus Memorandum in 1994. A promise which Russia broke repeatedly.

Russia has demonstrated over and over again that it will not abide by its own peace agreements. Russia cannot be trusted to honor any treaty. There can be no peace so long as Russia is a duplicitous kleptocracy.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (11 children)

"In 2014, after a well-prepared[3] US-sponsored anti-Russian coup in Kyiv, Ukrainian ultranationalists banned the official use of Russian and other minority languages in their country and, at the same time, affirmed Ukraine’s intention to become part of NATO. Among other consequences, Ukrainian membership in NATO would place Russia’s 250-year-old naval base in the Crimean city of Sebastopol under NATO and hence U.S. control. Crimea was Russian-speaking and had several times voted not to be part of Ukraine. So, citing the precedent of NATO’S violent intervention to separate Kosovo from Serbia, Russia organized a referendum in Crimea that endorsed its reincorporation in the Russian Federation. The results were consistent with previous votes on the issue.

Meanwhile, in response to Ukraine’s banning of the use of Russian in government offices and education, predominantly Russian-speaking areas in the country’s Donbas region attempted to secede. Kyiv sent forces to suppress the rebellion. Moscow responded by backing Ukrainian Russian speakers’ demands for the minority rights guaranteed to them by both the pre-coup Ukrainian constitution and the principles of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). NATO backed Kyiv against Moscow. An escalating civil war among Ukrainians ensued. This soon evolved into an intensifying proxy war in Ukraine between the United States, NATO, and Russia."

from former ambassador chas freeman. you know what came after this ? a brokered peace agreement by osce france and germany in which various terms were settled which neither france, nor germany, nor ukraine were intending to uphold. this is the minsk agreement.

there's a lot you like to leave out, and i'm sure you'll deign to forget this history, too.

edit: to the one user who upvoted me: i see you, bless your heart and open mind- more than makes up for the dozens upon dozens of salty idealogues

[–] [email protected] 55 points 1 month ago (1 children)

You say coup, rest of the rational world says anti corruption revolution.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 month ago

Citing Crimean election results from a nation that “keeps overwhelmingly voting Putin into office, as his opponents are too dead to run” is a bold move.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 month ago

referendums... Lol, right...

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[–] [email protected] 99 points 1 month ago (3 children)

If I steal your car and tell everyone that I won’t steal more from you if you just let me keep your car… you’d be good with that?

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 month ago (1 children)

if you're a country and 9 out of 10 of your papers are funded by USAID, you'd be good with that?

[–] [email protected] 65 points 1 month ago (2 children)

I’m sorry but what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

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[–] Semjaza 28 points 1 month ago (4 children)

Tell me you're an American who has never left North America without telling me.

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Did you already get the “hate magnet” achievement for having the most downvoted account? If not, you’re definitely getting close.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 month ago

redditors spamming the disagreement button doesnt make them any more right or wrong by the way

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 month ago
[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 month ago (17 children)

I could believe that of any major country directly profiting from this. But what's your reliable source for all that, especially Zelenskyy?

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[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Time for Germany to build nuclear weapon stockpiles. Fuck this shit with the USA and Russia. Their Saudi Arabia meeting was another 2018 Helsinki shitshow.

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Ukraine wasn’t invited to the decision to fight a proxy war either, or have its government overthrown in the Maidan Coup. And when they attempted peace talks before, their western handlers ordered them to keep fighting.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 month ago (33 children)

Ukrainians: Fight to defend their country from Russian attack

Western countries who don't like what Russia is doing help Ukrainians

Some silly person online: YOU'RE FIGHTING AN AMERICAN PROXY WAR

They're just trying to defend their country.

And when they attempted peace talks before, their western handlers ordered them to keep fighting.

What's this referring to?

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 month ago (1 children)

History is full of such examples

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 month ago (19 children)

They are not in charge, the US/NATO is. They are merely only doing the fighting and dying.

As it was written decades ago by what people call a philanthropist for some reason:

the combination of manpower from Eastern Europe with the technical capabilities of NATO would greatly enhance the military potential of the Partnership because it would reduce the risk of body bags for NATO countries, which is the main constraint on their willingness to act.

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 month ago (1 children)

AP headline: "Russia and US agree to work toward ending Ukraine war in a remarkable diplomatic shift"

They mention that Ukraine isn't even at the table several paragraphs in. Jolly.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (24 children)

War needed to end years ago, any end in sight should be welcomed and anyone preventing that from happening investigated.

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