this post was submitted on 23 Apr 2025
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Like, I really understand where this is coming and I see why it's that way. But I'm also really tired of being seen as a threat just because my way home seems to have some overlap. How do I react to make clear I'm not interested in rape, violence, stalking, whatever? I just want to get home to my dogs, there's no need to prepare your keys to gouge my eyes out.
In all seriousness, what are men supposed to do with this besides feel bad?
Or is that the point?
Not getting mad when someone feels threatened by you is a pretty good start.
Constantly being treated like a bad guy, no matter what you do or how hard you try gets wearing. Right or wrong, it makes some men apathetic.
Either I look really non-threatening, or I'm just oblivious, because I've never noticed this. Probably a bit of both.
I'm a bigger guy, about 6'3" and about 230 lbs, so I get that I look intimidating some times. But I've honestly just walked past a woman and smiled at them and get a nasty look. I go out of my way to put out a happy and positive image and still sometimes get looked at like I'm some threat.
It's tiring and honestly at some point you just stop caring. I stop smiling and reassuring everyone smaller than me to make them feel better, because what's the point. I've become jaded.
If I'm going to be treated like a bad guy NO MATTER WHAT I ACTUALLY DO, I might as well be a fucking bad guy. Don't do the crime if you...are going to do the time anyway?
"Women made me evil"
On top of not suggesting that making men feel bad is the point (it's not), this comment seems to provide helpful tips: https://reddthat.com/comment/18247122
What I'd also recommend is being an ally to women in your life already. If women felt more male allyship during the inside/day, then maybe they'd be less fearful of men outside/at night.
What an inane take on the subject. Men are willing to help women so often that it’s a large factor in male on male violence.
This is a microcosm of the whole issue. Yes there are dangerous men and they’re often dangerous to both men and women.
The consequences are often different as men are significantly more likely to be violently assaulted, and more likely to be killed, while women are overwhelmingly more likely to be sexually harassed or sexually assaulted.
I would love to see what data you're going off of that suggests that a large factor of male on male violence is a direct result of men stepping in for the safety of a woman. Please share what source you have for this.
Regardless, even if 100% of male on male violence was somehow because a man physically put himself in the way of a woman being attacked, my advice is still sound. There'd still be plenty of women out there who experienced violence and have not experienced male allyship. Your point about men being more likely to be killed by men than a woman is doesn't really affect women's perception of men. If a woman views men as a threat, the best way to help is to demonstrate that men on the whole are not threats. It's unlikely that anything you do to make a woman on the street more comfortable will have a lasting impact on her perception of men. One of the best things you can do is show the women around you who know and believe you that you, an average man, are safe. Call out sexism in the workplace, be respectful of her boundaries. If more men did that then women would have more experience interacting with men they know are safe. This would change their perception of men as a whole. It's a whole thing. Desensitization.
You did not say anything refuting my point or even suggest an alternative. You just said that men are also targets, which is true, but not at all relevant to the question of how to make women feel safer. I'm providing the perspective of a woman who knows and regularly speaks to other women.
I don't have the study, but it's so ingrained it's literally a meme. The idea of a "white knight" is based off the idea that men defend women without actually having idea whats going on. The "how can she slap" meme came from a show where a woman slapped a guy when she wasnt allowed to, and it shocked him so he slapped her back. Instantly every dude in the crowd got up and started beating his ass, even though she literally assaulted him outside of the rules of the show. There's also the trope of guys doing dumb stuff "because love" or to show off to women.
I'm didn't read enough to follow his point nor yours outside of that, but there is definitely a point to be made that men do tend to defend women from strangers, just not from friends.
Memes are not studies. If you can't at least find one to support the point I'd hazard it was never true. You can't base an argument around a single video, or even a collection of them. Data is generally needed.
White knighting is pretty exclusively used in a derogatory manner, which would indicate that most people think it's not the default and that it's cringe.
Men doing stupid things for women is not the fault of women. It also does not translate to defending women.
If men were so ready to defend women, why was the me too movement needed? Why is there still sexism in the workplace, or at all? Do I believe that some men like to appear masculine? Yes. Do I believe that some men equate masculinity with violence? Yes. Do I think that necessarily equates to protecting women, or doing things that benefit women? Absolutely not.
You say you didn't read enough to follow, and that you don't have any studies, but that there is definitely a point to be made. Even if there is, your comment does not really support that.
This feels like how Trump got elected. Commenting about how memes proved a point and just going off of vibes, it must be right.
Here's a study.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0886260521997928
Its about 'Honor Based Violence' as it pertains to males being involved in violence against other males, when the inciting incident is a woman's honor being insulted.
Also how forced marriages harm and are used to punish non gender conforming males in hyperpatriarchichal societies.
... The study begins by basically saying that uh, no one really bothers to study this within a feminist framework, almost all existing research is geared toward how women are harmed.
Been doing that for about two decades now.
I've gotten guys slipping roofies in girls drinks thrown outta bars.
Gotten in many verbal arguments protecting LGBTQ folks against bigots, a few came to blows.
Much more than that as well, all the worldview of an anarchist that fundamentally believes any system, at any level of society, that perpetuates injustice is itself unjust, no matter how it claims to work, worked for nonprofits helping the homeless... particularily women domestic abuse survirors...
... Doesn't matter, I am a white male, dress fairly tradtionally cishetmale most of the time, and I am now very, very used to being prejudged as potentially violent, getting insults thrown at me criticizing a worldview I don't have.
Even more ironic in that I've actually been domestically abused (physically assaulted, if that isn't clear) by a former female partner...
Wasn't ... part of tearing down the patriarchy... supposed to include encouraging men to be ok with being more vulnerable, being ok with crying, not being judged for expressing buried emotions, in a a non threatening manner?
...
Has anyone ever said to you, or have you ever said...
Wow, I didn't realize what I was saying, the way I was saying it, was hurtful to you... I'll try to be more conscious of how my actions affect those around me, in the future?
... And really, truly, mean it?
I think it's great that you've helped people in need. I'm sorry you were abused. That's awful no matter the circumstances.
I'm not sure why you're bringing up men crying and being vulnerable. I support anyone expressing their emotions in healthy ways and I've not seen people here say otherwise. Are you just sharing your personal experience or was this related to something?
I would hope most people can say yes to the last bit. It's more or less the basis of civil society.
I am not looking for validation from you, as it is obvious from the start you aren't interested in empathizing with a man, please stop talking to me like you just finished your BA in Psych or Social Work and are talking to a troubled teen.
You are intentionally playing dumb and trying to psychoanalyze me, to avoid addressing the actual totality of what I have said.
This is disrespectful.
It is a fairly basic and well understood fact that men tend to value respect and perceptions of being respected significantly more than women, on average.
...
I said what I said as a direct response to your response, to being asked:
'What are men supposed to do with this besides feel bad?'
Your response was essentially:
Men shouldn't feel bad about this.
and
Be an ally to women.
...
Ok, so...
For the first part, you are just outright denying men the capacity or right to ... feel a certain way, express emotions about an experience they had.
This is fundamentally at odds with the conception of tearing down the enforced gender normativity of patriarchy, a huge element of which is men stuffing down their emotions, being told when and how and what they're allowed to have emotions about, which is generally: suck it up buttercup, your feelings don't matter, your emotions are not valid.
You are directly mandating all men abide by this rule.
You are directly enforcing the patriarchy, toxic masculinity.
....
For the second part,
I've been an ally to women (and many others) for 20 years.
Call that my sense of honor.
So have many other men.
I gave you an anecdote, a case study of one, my lived experience of how that worked out for me.
It didn't work for me personally, and it isn't working at a broader societal scale either.
The 'gender wars' are intsensifying, male incel edgelord culture got a fascist kleptocracy elected to run the US government, more and more marriages are failing and more and more young adults have never had a serious relationship of any kind, nor even a sexual partner... and all of this is fueling a ... 'return to the Handmaid's tale' wave of politics and policies that massively infringe upon the rights of women.
Your strategy is not working.
It is not producing an inclusive, more understanding, more empathetic, more tolerant or more patient culture.
It is producing the opposite.
...
'Blame all men' is your message, your strategy, distilled into a slogan. Be wary of all of them, all the time, you never know which one could hurt you.
A more sound strategy would not alienate allies, it would be more specific, targeted, with actually useful heuristics or rules that can be practically applied so as to actually be able to discern the difference between likely ally and likely foe.
What needs to be happening is the development of a constructive dialogue... not a hardening and intensifying of recalcitrance.
... Unless your goal actually is to escalate tensions.
Sorry, got that whole Anarchist thing going on, a system's purpose is what it ultimately does, not what it claims to do.
If it's not about you then don't worry about it
For some of us, like certain spans of the autistic spectrum, that really isn't a simple ask.
Because we do worry. We do feel empathy. We can't help but feel like we're still being lumped in.
We are already so paranoid from a lifetime of being blamed for every little deviation that it's just more of the same.
Fellow Autist here:
We are being lumped in.
I can't tell you the number of times I have gotten into arguments to defend someone's ... non conformity to societally standard gender norms, societally standard sexual preferences, societally standard cisness (?), against some MAGA hat wearing dudebro...
Only for that very person, who was present with me, as I defended them verbally against some asshole, in person...
To then, some months or weeks later, literally scream at me when something completely unrelated to any of that upset them...
... and they throw every single rhetorical device and phrase at me that they throw at actual male chauvanists, and also simultaneously attempt to deride my insufficient amount of stereotypical macho manliness.
And this wasn't a single person doing this.
It has been multiple people, many times, all self described leftists or liberals who all just immediately revert to all the insults they'd hurl at an avowed white neonazi.
Oh well, I guess I am at least used to constantly being misunderstood and shunned from society because of an inherent way that I am different from most people that I have no ability to fundamentally change.
intense deadpan stare to emphasize the galactic levels of irony
The idea is expressed for catharsis. It's only going to push awful people further into caustic masculine behaviors. So it's not actually directed at them, its target audience is other folk who have to deal with their awful behaviors.
As long as you're not unnecessarily approaching strangers in public and you build trust in your personal relationships then you can safely ignore it.
Edit: actually you kind of need to once you understand the problem being described or your mental health will take a severe hit. Talking from experience here...
"Uhhh, yes ALL MEN, why would you say not all men?"
"Uh not all of them obviously, I don't mean the good ones. If you thought I was targeting you when I said all men are bad, threats to innocent people, and need to be kept out of public spaces and valuable positions. Obviously you are a bad person."
That's the same mentality trump voters have
Speak up when you see other men being abusive jerks. Use peer pressure to improve the behavior instead of excusing it.
Ditto: I literally take pubic transit to work every single day and every single time I hop off I hop off with these 2 other ladies, and they always pretend to check their bag so that I walk ahead of them and they can see me.
I totally understand why they do that but it still is just dehumanizing to me, specially after literal years of getting off at the same stop.
If it's the same two women every day then you could say hello and introduce yourself?
I think it would be weird to introduce myself to them, here in Canada you do not really talk to other people on the bus except maybe if youre going to another city and have literally nothing else to do
Run up to them, and announce that you don't intend to harm them and then ask where they live so you can safely escort them home.
Just avoid looking at anyone for longer than a second or two, but don't try to look like you are avoiding looking at anyone. If in close proximity, acknowledge their existence and then focus on something else. If they start conversing, reciprocate but do not try to keep the conversation going if it trails off. If they don't appear to open to a conversation and you are in close proximity, a small nod to indicate you noticed them and then changing your focus is a really good way to indicate you noticed them, but are not interested in interacting with them.
This really puts victims at ease. I mean strangers. Yeah, strangers.
Seriously though, just existing in the same space and not forcing interaction does put people at ease. Being overly friendly or acting like you are trying to avoid noticing their existence is suspicious for good reasons.
Me: exist without an extensive list of precautions.
Women: oh no!
But to be honest, I've stopped looking at people at all because this costs me so much energy and at some time I just gave up. If this makes me look like a threat then I'm sorry.
You asked "How do I react" and then when given a sympathetic and detailed answer seem to act as though it's a huge imposition being demanded of you.
The reality is that you don't have to do anything and no one has demanded you do anything. Sometimes, allyship requires effort. If you think you might be making someone uncomfortable and there is something you can do to ease that discomfort, it's your choice to make, but please don't act like it's women who are out there putting society in this position. It's men who are doing it. You're also may be "sorry" about it, but clearly not sorry enough to want to change to help.
Most women do not perceive every man as a threat. There are some that do I'm sure, but generally there's a specific set of circumstances where it becomes an issue. If you don't want to take those opportunities to exercise allyship by making them more comfortable, you don't have to.
It isn't an extensive list, I just explained it with examples to avoid being too vague. It is just two things:
Worrying too much about how others see you to the point that you are uncomfortable will make others uncomfortable. If you can be comfortable with yourself others will be more likely to feel comfortable around you.
AUDHD: "Let's create a huge problem where none needs to exist, ok?"
Honestly my being an introvert with ADHD makes noticing people but not paying too much attention easy because I'm thinking about something else and am not looking for a conversation anyway! Threads like this and talking to women I know in person about what they find creepy is how I found out it is the least threatening way to act. Just got lucky tbh.
I'm an introvert as in focused internally on my own thoughts. I don't have social anxiety and am comfortable talking to strangers if they start the conversation.
So I have to run through a check list for every single encounter I have just to not be treated like an animal. I can't just exist and go about my life? I mean, I don't see this helping the problem.
But isn't that also true with snakes? All of the times that I've stumbled across copperheads or rattlesnakes, they've just wanted to do their thing, and go on their way. They didn't want to bite me. And 99.999% of the time, as long as you back off, the snake isn't going to do anything.
...Except there's that .001% of the time when a snake is going to chase someone, and attack them. And that makes everyone terrified of all snakes, because they never know which one is going to be that .001%.
It's understandable, but it's not fair, and yeah, it sucks to have people think you're a threat when you're trying hard not to be.
Unfortunately, there's no one stop shop or one size fits all solution to this, I think. If there were, bad actors would abuse it and it wouldn't work anymore. If you're around people regularly and you'd like them to know you're no threat, getting to know them in a neighborly fashion might help a bit, but I'm afraid that in general we're just dealing with a mass erosion of trust in general.
When I see women do this around me, I feel a little glad for them that they don't need to do this and a little sad they don't (and really can't) know that they don't need to do this.
I understand feeling hurt that someone might be afraid of me, but that gets erased when I exercise a little empathy for that person who is afraid.
I'm going to disagree because then it seems like you are following them. Changing your behavior because they are present is paying a lot of attention to them.
Acknowledging them, maybe stating where you are going without asking where they are going, and passing at the same speed has been very successful in my experience. The worst reaction I ever received was "I don't care where you are going" which means they were comfortable giving me grief. The best reaction, which has happened a few times over the years, was a response that they were going the same way and asking to walk with me.
I generally walk faster then other people, so that'll be a hard one. I get really irritated at work when people won't get the fuck out of the walkway.
But counterpoint; why do you care what other people feel around you? The best response to women scared you're going to rape them is to not rape them.
Anything past that is your own insecurity and need for emotional validation. Sure, you could devote time and energy into being an activist in whatever forms you want, but some strange lady you don't know is still going to cut across the sidewalk when they see you approaching. AND YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. DEAL WITH IT.
Men "overcompensating" for this valid fear is what's driving movements of really stupid, shitty men who like to roleplay stories on reddit how they had the cops called on them for hanging out near a playground. We don't need to do this. Make the world better, make your emotional state better. Don't worry what other people feel or think, you will never be broadly loved by everyone, or even broadly accepted by everyone. You'll be lucky if you have several people in your ENTIRE LIFE who trust you. That's the sticks. Sorry kid.
edit: i stand by it, and the screaming "sexism!" outrage only further validates my belief that you're all living in a fantasy world online where you think someone is coming. Where you think things are going to change.
NOBODY IS COMING. You have to adjust your own thinking and feeling about the world if you're going to survive it. It gets so much worse guys, these little issues with women thinking you're bad? You will wish one day that was the worst issue you ever had to juggle over in your head, if you can get past it sooner than later you will save yourself and your loved-ones a lot of heartache as you have your inevitable meltdown we all have eventually.
Bad take, you're dismissing society's effect on the psyche of many men by saying these things