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It was initially for defense after a massacre when the Iron Dome was breached in October. That was completely justified support. The munitions sold since Netanyahu began indiscriminately killing Palestinians are not.
They've been indiscriminately killing Palestinians long before October.
And during that very long time, Eisenhower, Johnson, Ford, Nixon, Regan, Clinton, both Bushes, Carter, Obama, Trump and until recently Biden didn’t stop selling Israel weapons.
And now Biden has started to cut them off.
Reagan held up arms shipments to Israel on multiple occasions.
He did not. He withheld all aid from Israel, and then provided military aid under the agreement that they’d use it to attack Hezbollah in Lebanon. That was after he sold the weapons to Iran in the Iran-Contra scandal that ended up in the hands of Hezbollah.
The man literally put this shit pot on the stove and started stirring. Do not glorify his actions in this conflict.
The previous attacks during the Biden administration were attempted attacks on Hamas, not attacks directed at Palestinians. If Israel always wanted to kill all Palestinians, that would’ve been done in 1985 when this conflict started. Netanyahu has been using the attack on Oct. 7 to justify the shift in tactics from targeting Hamas to “we can’t tell them apart.”
Hamas isn't even in the West Bank yet Shireen Abu Akleh was murdered there in 2022, while clearly marked as a journalist. There are so many incidents I could pull up as examples of indiscriminate killings but your ignorance is not worth my time.
I’m not saying the IDF didn’t kill Palestinians before Oct 7th. I’m saying they began targeting both Hamas and Palestinians alike after the attack.
Israel only came into existence following ethic cleansing committed against civilians in 1947-1948. Israel has targeted civilians its entire history.
No, all the children shot during the March of Return were not Hamas, nor were the thousands killed before 2006.
Palestinians have a right to resist. Israel, being an illegitimate settler apartheid state, has no such right. Attacks on Hamas are not justified.
Correct. The Great March of Return was during the Trump Administration. The thread commenter was talking about the last six months of munitions supplied to Israel. Maybe this is the start of change.
Blame fucking Trump for #1
American policy regarding Isreal is bipartisan stop shifting the blame and own up.
You say in a thread where the current president has delayed weapons delivery for the first time in 50 years. STFU
It's not because he personally wants to, go check what he's on the record as saying his entire career. This isn't something to applaud, this is him trying to avoid political blowback. You think we should stop applying pressure because of a single descision?
The other commenter didn't say that, but also, shouldn't we be pleased that a politician, the literal President of the United States, is buckling to public pressure here? Isn't that the whole point of democracy is that they are supposed to represent the will of the people? That he is doing this in spite of his own personal interest is pretty amazing and stark compared to Trump.
I think we should take wins like this seriously, the system is working as it should for a brief moment here. Progress takes time, let's celebrate how quickly an 81 year old man is changing course on something lol
Hard to celebrate anything with so much money stolen from the American people and so many Palestinians dead.
This is shameful and the fact that Trump is worse is no excuse, raise your expectations. There are ongoing protests being violently repressed and all Biden has to say about it is "law and order", wake up.
That is very clearly not all he has to say, he has just now interrupted a 50-year supply of military arms to an ally, for the first time ever as far as I am aware. They're building a literal seaport for aid delivery. The president often can't unilaterally make decisions, much of the funding especially for Israel is packaged into bills made by Congress, that are usually a small part of a larger budget.
The protests are working, as intended. The government is changing their tune, as intended. Maybe I am awake, maybe you're the one who's asleep. Maybe not. In my eyes though this is how democracy has always worked. You argue until the other side is convinced, which we are in the middle of doing and succeeding at.
You equated Biden and Trump. We have their two presidencies to refer to now, we don't have to guess, and they look and sound a lot different on Israel to me. We'll see what Biden does if they invade Rafah.
How about that 1 billion weapons package Biden is pushing now? How is that red line he had working out?
I don't think it's possible to justify support for apartheid.
Agreed. It’s been the standard since Israel was conceived in 1948, but there are a lot more liberal people in Israel now. The ultra-orthodox make up only 13% now, and those are the conservatives that got Netanyahu into power. He only has a 15% approval rating since January, and there have been massive protests since March. Let’s hope they do the right thing with the next election and allow Palestinians access to their holy land.
Netanyahu's opposition are even more openly fascist. There is no meaningful left in Israel.
That sounds like ignorant nationalism. I have Israeli-American friends that describe the party very differently. I may believe you if you could substantiate it with proof of their fascist left wing.
The very fact that their "left" still wants an apartheid state! There's no Israeli left party that wants to give equal rights to Palestinians and return their homes.
They don’t. A large faction of Israel’s left wing believes in one-state. 20% of Israeli Jews believe in a one state solution, as do most Arab/Palestian Israelis. It’s been growing as time passes and the older generations die.
https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Summary%20Report_%20English_Joint%20Poll%2024%20Jan%202023.pdf
The trick here, that was even covered in that paper, is the difference between what Palestinians think a one state solution is and what Israelis think a one state solution is.
In that study they found the Palestinians viewed a single country with equal rights for all as a one state solution. The Israelis thought it meant a state with all of the territory but without the Palestinians.
Frankly, the liberal Israelis wouldn't be for a one state solution if it also meant giving up the land and property stolen from the Palestinians through terrorism.
"Scratch a liberal, and a fascist bleeds"
Watch how fast they'd turn right wing if property in west Jerusalem or east Jerusalem had to be given up.
Where do you see the point about Israelis believing it would be without Palestinians? I’ve read it twice now, and I don’t see that understanding anywhere. Did you make that up?
Figure 2 and figure 4 on page 7 and 8.
My description is definitely hyperbole, but it's still stretching the truth less then your 'leftist Jewish people really do want as a majority this thing that the study shows as single digit, or just barely double digit at 10%.' thing.
also, leftists don't want things stolen through terror.
This really reads as a cope study for American Jewish people that don't want to deal with the cognitive dissonance that the internal contradictions of leftism and Zionism automatically produces.
There is no ethical way to create a new homeland for a people that underwent a diaspora that is ethical when the land they want is already occupied.
Edit: plus it won't matter as long as the state of Israel has a law requiring Jewish Israelis maintain the majority population. Oh yeah, that's a thing.
Edit: this is done on a phone and I'm correcting autocorrect mistakes that don't change the point.
Those are the two state solution graphs, and that would be without Palestinian representation. It’s less, only 20% of Israeli Jews and almost all Arab/Palestinian Israelis support an equal one state solution. That still makes up almost half of the left wing party. The numbers have been steadily increasing as older generations die. I have Israeli-American friends that have supported one-state their whole life growing up in Israel. They don’t dehumanize or vilify Palestinians. They have nothing but contempt for Hamas and their bloodthirsty agenda to eradicate Israeli settlers and reclaim the holy land, but are very aware of the difference between Hamas and Palestinians. They want peace and equality, as do many others in the left wing.
Do they have the same contempt for Israeli IDF that intentionally kill civilians in Gaza or give cover to the hilltop youth committing ethnic cleansing in the west bank and demand the 15000 Palestinian hostages from the west bank be released? If not, they're hypocrites at best.
I have Israeli-American friends that are organizing their cities JVP chapter.
Israel is not an ethical creation, and my father is older than this so called country.
Oh 100%. One of them joined the protest in NYC. They both resent Netanyahu for using antisemitism as a defense for his actions. They’re both Israeli Jews, and have to deal with the repercussions of his actions halfway around the world.
As far as the ethics of creating Israel, that was decided by Truman and the UN. The US is more to blame for the creation of Israel than the Israelis.
Tell that to the fucking Irgun.
Israel was formed through terrorism and maintains its power through terrorism, as all colonial states do. That word, colonial? That was the word Israel used to describe itself in the 50's to Europe when trying to convince other Jewish people to move there and take land from the people living there.
Israel was formed by the Zionists who formed it through terrorism and ethnic cleansing. Truman, dumb fuck that he was, just formalized what existed through the targeted violence lead by the Zionists living there at the time.
That’s not accurate. The US saw the creation of Israel as a way to establish US presence against the colonial support of Great Britain and the Soviet support of the USSR in the Palestinian Arabs. The US provided the forces for “containment” as it was called. The Jewish settlers did not have the means to do what was done, having just been displaced from Germany and Poland.
https://digitalcommons.odu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1047&context=history_etds
Do you just post links hoping people won't read them and they'll be like 'oh shit, this person is posting sources!'
A thesis for a masters degree in history in 1980(EDIT: 1990, not 1980) at Old Dominion university a source is not.
Especially for something as ahistorical as your point of view. Especially for trying to absolve the Zionists of any agency or responsibility for their actions. Truman and the international community voted and approved the partition plan. David Ben Gurion and other Jewish leaders in Zionist terrorist organizations like the Irgun and Lehi under the Haganah used it as a stepping stone to enlarge their territory through forced ethnic cleansing and murder sprees.
I don't know how to even respond to this it's so nonsensical. All I can imagine is it's an attempt to link in the Holocaust with the formation of Israel. As if the influx of Zionists to Mandatory Palestine started in 1945. If that was the case, Zionists should have just been given Austria or something.
It's clear at this point you're either arguing in bad faith or just so delusional as to be living in an alternate universe.
I will actually give you the benefit of the doubt here in the bad faith bit here though. You don't seem malicious, you seem like you believe your own nonsense.
Either way, I'm done with this.
Edit: Sorry, the 1990, not 1980.
Those are not two state solutions graphs.
Do you actually read those? Those are graphs for what people want if a two state solution is available in the set of options in the study.
That twenty percent figure comes from if you remove all other possible options.
This its an example of 'lies, damned lies, and statistics' except as usual, it's not the statistics doing the lying but the person misinterpreting them.
Edit: while I don't think the author of this it's biased, I think the methodology of the study is shitty. Not maliciously so, just it's really hard to build studies that get to peoples underlying views.
This is the equivalent of someone taking your house and throwing you in the basement and then when you come out and attack decades later they fight back and say its for self defense. Please.
So Native Americans should just start murdering Americans until they leave? One state is the only equitable solution at this point.
You’re right. It’s an imperfect analogy. The Jews that occupy Israel once lived in Israel. Colonialists never originated in America. If you want to run the clock back, take a real look at who is responsible for the creation of Israel.
The Jews didn’t have the means to fight anyone, having just been displaced from their homes in Germany and Poland. Truman and the UN, against Great Britain’s protest, provided the necessary forces as an investment against the colonial presence of Great Britain and socialist presence of the USSR in the form of Arab/Palestinian support. The US is more to blame for the creation and existence of the state of Israel than the Israelis.
https://digitalcommons.odu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1047&context=history_etds
The Zionist terrorist organizations that ethnically cleansed portions of Mandatory Palestine through murder sprees of civilians are responsible
Stop posting the thesis of a dude going for his masters degree in history at 'Old Dominion' university written in 1980 as a source when this was recent enough that we literally have primary sources for what happened.
Do you have a better source?
No one in Israel wants that.
Also, this comparison is very apt. Israelis explicitly want to get to the point where they have the land and can just give land acknowledgments. This view though is dependent on "Never Again'' meaning nothing.
20% of Israeli Jews and most Arab/Palestinian Israelis are in support of a one state solution, with numbers increasing as the older generations die off. Vilification of Israelis is no different than the dehumanization of Palestinians that you’re protesting. No group of people deserves simplification.
https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Summary%20Report_%20English_Joint%20Poll%2024%20Jan%202023.pdf
I edited my comment while you responded. That was not done maliciously.
I did the same after reading your edit. Lol
I thought most surveys showed like 30-40% of israelis were in support of a single-state solution?
wellllll...
It was never justified and this didn't start that day
Correct. Killing Palestinians is not justified. What I wrote was providing defense to an ally that was just attacked is standard, and justified.
Nobody needs 2000lb bombs - which the US itself doesn't use because they blow up entire quarters and have massive collateral damage - for defense.