this post was submitted on 18 Jun 2024
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I don't oppose the idea of battery station, but who owns the battery then? When I bought the car, am I leasing the battery? How about used car?
The company (NIO) owns them and you are leasing the batteries. The car is cheaper this way, as you don’t buy the battery up front, but pay a monthly fee (~200+ in Germany).
You have a fixed number of swaps per month, above that you have to pay extra.
Source: colleague uses a car like this and explained the details.
What if they EOL the battery and stops the leasing program? Now the perfectly fine car is non functional because it's missing a battery. If I replace it, I'm just contributing more waste, not in materal but energy. Is that the "green" future we all after?
I'd assume you could still charge them the regular way. You'd just no longer get a fresh one, but that just puts you on par with the other EVs
The ownership is still questionable. Even if that's the case, you're stuck with the battery you last swapped in, which you don't know the wear level or how long it will last.
I hope it’s not 200€ but it’s way higher than what I pay for the gas.
It's been a while since I've watched it myself, but remember them going into the ownership structure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNZy603as5w
There's basically no way for them to not make it a subscription model.
So I can give an example. Here in Taiwan, Gogoro has put up a lot of battery swap stations for their electric scooters. When you buy the scooter, it comes with removable batteries which you can charge on your own. Or, you can buy a monthly subscription on top of it that gives you access to those battery stations, where you can ride up to one and swap a pair of freshly charged batteries into your scooter. Subscription price is tiered by Ah per month, if you go over the limit you pay extra per Ah.
In this case, yes I think Gogoro is in charge of maintaining/replacing old batteries. Subscription is separate from the scooter cost, so buying used should not affect your ability to subscribe to the plan.
I love that system
so it is your battery and got additional batteries you can swap on the road with a subscription? That looks promising.
However, this works for scooters is because the battery pack is small enough for hand carry and install. It won't be on typical 4-wheel vehicles as those are about a thousand pound. Even if we can modular and miniaturize it like how Gogoro does, where to install it is a big problem. Obviously we can't install it in the front compartment as that will be a fire hazard when crash.
No, you don't get additional batteries. Once you start using the swapping service, the battery that came with your scooter goes into circulation. I suppose when you decide to stop subscribing to the service, the batteries that you have currently will be yours to keep. (I don't own a Gogoro btw)
Yeah, and I agree that this system works great with scooters but not for cars.
I guess it would either work like a subscription fee or a one time fee per swap
Subscription for my car? Don't we have too much subscriptions already?
And neither solve the ownship problem, and a tons of other problems.
Subscription for fuel.
Gas is more like pas-as-you-go. Battery no so sure. And they are different by nature: gas can't be reused, batteries can.
You pay a monthly fee (lease) that contains a certain number of swaps per month, above which you pay extra. The car is also cheaper this way, as you are not paying the full price of the the battery up front
No, you're paying over and over for the battery.
Sort of like how you pay over and over for gas, without which your car doesn't work?
But for gas you don't need to worry ownership problem as you can't reuse gas. Once it is burnt, it's gone.
Batteries are different because you can recharge it, which brings ownership problem into sight. And unlike gas tank for your grill, which the port is somewhat universal and shape doesn't matter too much. Car batteries have wear level that affects performamce (range) and are likely designed to fit a car/platform. It isn't that interchangeable.
Even when I don’t use it? How is it acceptable?
No, it's like paying over and over for the gas tank.
The model only works if users are forced to subscribe to a battery swapping service for the full life of the vehicle (or there is a large upfront fee to join with a used vehicle). Otherwise it would be too easy for a consumer with a worn out battery to do a one-time swap and get a like-new battery as a cheap alternative to very costly battery repairs. The dumped battery is likely to have very poor range and the battery swap company will need to dispose of it.
That's like asking who owns a propane tanks for your grill. You own it while you have it.
When you get a new batter, you own the new one, and relinquish ownership of the previous one, paying for the electricity that's on the new battery. AS LONG AS the battery that you're relinquishing is substantially identical to the new battery.
That "substantially identical" is up for heavy debate.
In my head the batteries would work somewhat like the electric scooters you can rent around big cities. There would be battery companies that pay stations to stock their batteries. Then EV owners pay for the juice they used, plus a little extra for the wear, plus a little extra to make it worth it for the battery companies when they swap to a new battery. So you're essentially renting the batteries.
I would guess a swappable battery would be separated from the vehicle, similar to a gas bottle for a grill.
The battery would be rented for a small deposit and on swapping you only pay the energy + service fee.
I guess you could also buy one to own, but then could not swap that.
That's how it would make sense, at least.
I will take ownership over leasing as a 200 miles range is more than enough for me. But you will see if the leasing model works out, they will only have leasing left for you as that's a continous money flow. Or have the battery be super expensive to discourage you buy it.
Government regulation and standardization is the answer.
You know, like fossil fuels also are. For example fuelpumps have to be legally calibrated so that they measure accurately, and there are a myriad of quality standards and ratings regarding what 98 octane or 95 octane or diesel fuel or whatever can contain.
Quality control on batteries that go out to customers, and make the stations legally liable.
For example: I once pumped petrol in my diesel car due to human error by the gas station's supply company (they put petrol in the diesel tanks). They found out about the error as I was filling up and stopped me halfway, so luckily I had no engine damage, but they had to pay for the tow and to get my tank emptied.
Sounds more like a "your government is shit" problem than a "this scheme can't work" problem.
Gas gets to the gas station somehow. Obviously it isn't the same as transporting batteries back and forth but it's bad faith to say this is completely unprecedented logistics problem. I am under the impression that battery health could be screened at the swap facility and would require a small subset to be returned to a hub for additional inspection or repair.
To me, this is the biggest argument against battery swapping.
We have this huge industry for refining, storing, distributing, distributing ending gasoline that we can entirely dismantle with EVs. All that pollution: gone. All that wasted land: gone. All those unnecessary levels of profit-seeking: gone. Now you want to choose a technology that requires rebuilding all that, except two way? You want to force the new technology to conform to old infrastructure ideas?
How can we not prefer the alternative of “just plug it in wherever you are”? How can we not prefer the rare opportunity of simplifying something? How can we not forgo all those unnecessary profit seekers?
No, that's just something new you invented to shoot down the idea.
Batteries can have a tamperproof seal so that customers can't easily mess with it, just like you normally don't mess with the electricity, gas or water meter in your home. QC and charging can be done on site where you swap, and can mostly be automated. The only thing that needs to be transported back and forth regularly are defective and replacement batteries. Just like gas stations at the end of the day or week need to order replenishment for the fuel they've dispensed.
We already do this kind of swapping with other stuff as well: from crates with empty beer bottles and office water cooler bottles to refilling propane and butane bottles.
The lack of government oversight that you brought up, and which this was in reply to, is literally a government issue. Regulation and inspection works fine in most of the civilized world, the fact that it doesn't in Backwater USA is no argument.
Fossil fuel distribution already is a huge logistics issue, we have to dig it up in the middle east, transport it in oil tankers, refine it at some central locations, then distribute it again with tanker trucks to millions of gas stations so that finally you can put it in your car and use it to drive somewhere, but somehow we have been making that work for over a century.
With my EV I follow recommended practice to ensure longevity of the battery. I rarely charge it more than halfway as I don't need to for my regular usage, and I avoid letting it run down entirely. Once you engage in battery swapping, where's the incentive to take care of it well? After my first swap my brand new excellent condition battery is replaced by who knows what.
The charger would have some inspection capability. Maybe not physical integrity of the casing but certainly the voltag and current outputs and connectivity of cells which could would correlate to health.
I can already hear a mile away lobbyist paid by the manufactures rubbing their hands arguing standardization "limits innovations" and "slow developments."
Yeah, when I wanted to buy an electric car I look at the used market for the Renault Zoe but I quickly gave up.
The idea of paying a monthly subscription on a used car quickly turned me off and buying the leased battery back from Renault was prohibitively expensive.
That just proofs my point in https://lemmy.ml/comment/11726077
Once they get you on the hook, they can only provide the subscription option, much like how software (Adobe, I'm looking at you) does today. Or have the one-time purchase option be super expensive to lure customers into the subscription model.
Simply because continous revenue is batter then a one-time purchase.
Not just about "who owns it?" but also how does it work with insurance if something goes terribly wrong and who will bear the responsibility?