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Democrats in denial over Trump defeat, voters say: ‘Haven’t learned the lessons’
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 18 Jan 2025
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You're missing the lesson too, ironically.
The voters didn't like what the Democrats were offering them, they wanted change, and they wanted it badly enough that they went ahead and ate that dog-turd-and-glass-sandwich.
You're saying "they shouldn't have eaten that, the sandwich the Democrats were offering was better." Okay, well, they did it anyway. So you're wrong. The Democrats were wrong. They've been wrong multiple times now. They're doing the "Am I so out of touch? No. It's the voters who are wrong." Meme.
America's a democracy. The voters aren't wrong, as much as you might personally disagree with their choice. If you want a different government you have to offer them one that they'll vote for. That may require some compromises, but that's part of democracy.
I hope that they get it this time. This is the second time in recent memory that they've made this mistake. Even Biden's election was closer than it should have been. I really hope that the DNC gets its head out of its ass and cleans house, but articles like this are disheartening.
I live in a deep blue state. Family is all very blue. They have learned absolutely nothing. They all think what the Democrats did was perfect. Kamala was flawless. She didn't get elected because America is racist AND sexist.
They genuinely believe that there was nothing they could have done to improve.
I think they are gonna have to learn this lesson a few more times before they pull their heads outta their ass finally. I hope.
It won't happen. Every election in the last 25 years, including midterms, where the democrats tried to play to "moderate republicans", they got wiped out.
and they keep trying to dislodge "sane" republicans because they'd rather maintain centralized power than risk a grass roots movement distributing power to the masses. dyed in the wool democrats prefer fascism to meaningful reform
Obama was amazingly effective at the ballot box, but to the established Democratic power structure he was dangerous. Luckily for them he merged himself into their structure rather than maintaining his separate power base and taking on individual in-party resistors like Trump has, but it was a warning about what could happen and they took that lesson to heart. They do not want anything resembling another Obama.
Yep, that's why Hillary was basically in control of the party via Debbie Wasserman-Shultz and how much the DNC effectively owed Clinton at that point.
People want to memory hole that aspect of it but it was 100% a response to the Obama presidency an attempt to grab a stranglehold on the party which she used to shut down Sanders and force her nomination. People often forget this is the same year the Republicans rejected Jeb Bush. America didn't want Bush v. Clinton again, and Trump and Sanders were the only voices offering anything different. Democrats shut down their nascent progressive wing, and Trump just steamrolled the Republicans because he's a fucking bully and those guys bend over and take it for bullies.
You have to conclude that they'd rather chase after "moderate Republicans" and lose than chase after the left and win.
So if Dems are never left enough for you. Wouldn’t that mean they’re moderate. Which means they won in 06, 08, 12, 18, 20 and 22 being “moderate”.
They won in 2020 on the wake of protests and low-information voters who thought they'd be freeing the immigrant camps, defunding the police, codifying roe, and getting free healthcare.
They got wiped out in 22 by being moderate and getting fuckall done by trying to compromise with republicans for 2 years.
In 06 and 08, they were finally coming about against the Iraq war and promising things, unlike in 2004 where they simply said they would do the war more competently.
Her fascist border plan, embrace of genocide, and her running mate Liz Cheney were all great in their opinion? Wow. I need to talk to some Dems sometime.
.world is here 24/7.
This talking point is just so Democrats have an excuse to keep AOC out of the 2028 race in favor of some centrist turd barge.
What has AOC done that Kamala hasn’t?
Have positions to Biden's left.
Kamala is way more unpopular and doesnt support progressive policies, Kamala is a neoliberal, not a progressive.
What has AOC done that Kamala hasn’t?
Give a coherent speech. Talk about policy poistions. Pave her own way instead of riding on someone elses coattails. Have some basic principles and humanity. Have a staff that doesnt talk to the press about what a tyrant she is. Fight for whats right instead of what will bring in bribes.
The two couldnt be more different.
Actually asked voters what they want rather than tell them bullshit lies.
Stood against the palestinian genocide
Wants universal health care. Pushed the green new deal.
The blue bubble is as heard to burst as the red bubble. My mom lives on msnbc. There is not a moment that its not on just like my dad lives on fox. They are completely in their own different worlds made of fiction. Dad thought there was no way Trump could loose to Biden just as my mom thought there was no way Hillary/Harris could loose to Trump. Both had no moment of realisation, no moment of reflection just disbelief that they live in a bubble. Its always someone else's fault. Dad blamed the Democrats and mom blames the left.
To me it's obvious that Chomsky was right about manufacturing consent.
MSNBC is liberal Fox News. They both are the circuses while the public is clamoring for breadcrumbs.
Always has been.
Your family is correct. America is racist and sexist. Asl yourself, after that debate and the several Trump fumbles on the campaign trail. Would you vote for him or Harris? Regardless if you thought she was perfect or not.
If you voted for Trump, you obviously didnt care about policy when every indication points to his being objectively worse. And I’m ready to argue that all day.
No. You're showing the same fundamental misunderstanding the Democrats do.
If people are hurting, and one candidate says "I see you're hurting, and I will do XYZ to help you" while another says "We're all doing fine, nothing will change with me" - it's no wonder people go with the former! Even if they are lying.
Harris has a lot of flaws, but America is absolutely racist and sexist, and Trump couldn't have won otherwise. .
And thinking like this is why the democrats are going to continue to lose, and minorities and women will continue to get fucked for it.
Democrats, it’s the economy, stupid.
Well they don't even have to decide they wanna eat a shit sandwich- they just have to not be motivated enough to go to the polls and say "I'd like the snot sandwich instead of the shit sandwich, please". Which is what seems to have happened this election as best I'm aware
A lot of democratic voters weren't motivated, and didn't show up. And I agree with the statement made by the person quoted in the post, a huge part of that feels like it's the democratic party's complete unwillingness to criticize moneyed interests and figure out how to actually appeal to their constituency, and so they're loosing people. And now we're all stuck with that shit sandwich.
Don't deny voters their agency by saying they can't make wrong choices. They can and did. They made a stupid choice for idiotic reasons, and will get nothing but suffering for it. There are situations in life where feeling deeply and unconditionally ashamed of your own idiocy is the correct course of action, and this is one of them.
Voters have agency. Let's tell them how they will be voting and do nothing to appeal to them.
If they were too insignificant to listen to, they are too insignificant to blame. Your party lost because your party is shit on purpose.
I voted for Harris and of course Trump is worse, so spare me the only talking point any of you have.
I don't have a party. Voters had all the information they needed, and they chose poorly.
Democrats thought they didn't have to appeal to their voters. They were wrong.
Votes can't be wrong by definition, they are opinions. But if you accepted that you would have to get off your pedestal wouldnt you, and thats no fun. Go ahead and puff up your chest and brag about how obviously stupid so many people are.
Stop crying and take accountability.
My concern with statements like this is that I don't think your considering the impact that misinformation had on this election.
There were massive disinformation campaigns that had sizable effects on the dialogue that people had with their friends and neighbors. I'm worried that we could have actually put someone like Bernie as our nominee and that we still would have lost because of exactly this misinformation.
The Democrat message wasn't making it to people and I think that it really shows...
The Democrats message was literally "The Cheney's like us!" and "ithe economy is fine, the GDP has never been higher!" while everyone's lives are objectivly worse than they were 2 years ago. What messge do you think people wanted to here?
If you want to be completely reductionist, then sure. They were trying to show that Trump was so upsetting that people were crossing party lines to vote Democrat....not that Democrats have becomes so centrist that they attracted right-wingers. And the economy has been great, they're not wrong. The Democrat platform was also fantastic: $6k child tax credit, $25k first time home buyer assistance, tax reforms replacing the corporate tax rate to 28%< and taxing the rich, capping medication costs, union support, pushing reproductive rights, climate action, immigration reform. They had a STRONG platform.
....but that wasn't good enough. So they elected the billionaire conman that is putting up his billionaire cronies. That's going to help the economy. Like....could the Democrat message have been better? Sure, but it wasn't bad by any means.
But how are you supposed to argue with someone who doesn't operate on facts?
Trump didn't have many more voters this time around than 4 years ago. Democrats didn't go out to vote because they don't believe the in the message the DNC has been putting out for the last 8 years. I don't know what it will take to get you to understand that. All those policies are shit the Republicans would have pushed for 20 years ago. People don't want tax credits dor their children, they want access to healthcare and and affordable child care. They don't want tax credits for first time home buyers, they want landlords tarred and feathered on the courthouse steps. People can't afford their rent and food anymore but the DNC are so far up their own ass they can't see that.
Jesus H. Christ....you wrote that paragraph and meant it, without any reflection.
To start I voted for Harris, and every Dem down ballot.
But I see your list of a few boring economic things which would never have touched my life, a tax rate so low that it is disgusting, and a bunch of nebulous promises with no real policy.
Capping medication cost....how exactly? Biden capped the medicare cost of like 12 medications....So just keep going like that. Is THAT the reform policy? Because fuck that. That isn't change, that is tinkering.
Union support...What exactly does this mean. Does this mean the Dems wont break strikes? Because the Dems kept breaking strikes under Biden.
Pushing reproductive rights....ummm, but what does this mean? Does this include fixing the Supreme Court and the Filibuster so that actual legislation can happen....because we both know it does not.
Climate action? More drilling happened under Biden than Trump.
Immigration Reform? Dude, Biden was horrible on immigration, he just continued the Trump policy, then after being beaten over the head with immigration for 3 years pushed a right wing immigration reform to call the Republicans bluff. And Harris did nothing to differentiate herself from Biden.
And of course...then there is the weapon sales and genocide denial-ism. That too was a policy.
Disagreeing with something doesnt make it disinformation. What were the big lies being spread about Kamala that affected the voter base? I'm not on social media, the only thing I watched was the live interview she did on fox, and she was rude and deceptive. Is an uncut interview disinformation?
CITATION NEEDED
Don’t worry though, we won’t have to worry about voters soon, right?
America is a democracy, is it not? In a democracy the voters decide who leads them. There's nobody to "overrule" them. If you want to lead them you have to convince them to vote for you, you can't declare them "wrong" and take power anyway.
Are you saying that'd be a good thing? That seems to be what you're suggesting, but this also seems to be sarcasm.
Do you think the voters should be overruled when they vote Republican but not when they vote Democrat?
Direct quote from the orange man: vote for me this one time, and you won’t have to vote any more. But I’m sure you conveniently missed that part of the rage cycle last year and definitely aren’t being obtuse in bad faith.
The voters can make an objectively incorrect decision, that is their prerogative. Doesn’t exonerate them for being mocked, where else would leopards eating faces get its content from?
I honestly have no idea what you're saying here. I think democracy is good, overall. You're apparently agreeing with me, but in a way that makes it sound like you're accusing me of opposing democracy somehow?
The decision being made is "who do we want to have as president?" It's an opinion.
This is a bad take that I keep seeing.
Yes, the DNC fucked up massively. They should definitely have done more to convince voters.
But the voters who voted Trump/3rd party/abstained because of that are also morons who fucked up massively.
Both things are true. The DNC's glaring mistakes do not absolve the voters of their agency. The lesson isn't that the dog-turd sandwich eaters are rational actors, it's that the DNC needs to take into consideration people being irrational morons if they want to win. But at the end of the day, they're not the ones eating the sandwich. Voters have their own lesson to learn.
That's fine, I wasn't saying the second thing was false. I wasn't saying anything about the second thing at all.
The Democrats don't get to choose what electorate they're trying to convince. They must convince the American electorate. You can say whatever you want about the electorate but that doesn't change the Democrats' one job.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH