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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_7_Hamas-led_attack_on_Israel
It isn't off base to say Hamas is antisemitic. Hamas is a terrorist organization that attacked and murder civilians.
Israel then responded by also killing civilians. I don't think anyone is in the right here. Fighting war crimes with war crimes is not productive. Maybe we shouldn't go around killing people.
don’t think anyone is in the right here.
Still, the number of Israeli's killed is nowhere near the over 40,000 Palestinians killed. So it's weird to be pro-Israel.
It makes sense in the context of World war 2 and 9/11
Israel is closer to America than Hamas or Iran. Ultimately politics are not rational. People find facts to back there beliefs not the other way around.
Don't be crazy and cite information from over two years ago (when nobody gave a fuck whether Palestinians lived or died).
Huh - it's almost like the whole situation is kinda complicated to those of us trying to understand for decades and shouldn't be simplified by useful idiots who just tuned in and spent their energy in the streets instead of the ballot box.
EDIT: Wow, the previous poster totally changed their post that pretty much just outright repeated the traditional points of Zionist Propaganda on this as seen in most of the the Western Media (I should've kept a screenshot) into a response to my own post which just outright repeats traditional points of Zionist Propaganda (at least he's consistent) but without the slick framing.
(Interesting technique to avoid that others are notified of a response and come back to counter it).
My original benefit of the doubt (that maybe he's not a sock-puppet) seems to have been incorrect. My bad.
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My original post below:
That shit starts by straight out quoting Zionist propaganda.
First the double standard:
Either they're both Terrorist organisations for "attacking and murdering civilians" or one is a Resistance Movement and the other a Nation State. Claiming that the murdering of civilians to terrify the rest into complying with one's political and economical goals is only Terrorism if some do it but not if others do it is absolutely taking a side and doing it quite extremely since "Terrorist" is a heavily loaded word.
Second:
The ever repeated Zionist propaganda that being against Israel is being against Jews hence it's antisemitism. Is Hamas anti-semite (I.e. against Jews for being Jews) or is it against an occupier oppressor nation that takes their land and murders their children and is controlled by a subset of Jews? So far all indications are that it's mainly the latter.
Also the double standard raises its face once again here as the Israelis aren't being said to be anti-Islamic, which is funny give that even the Israeli press is extremely racist nowadays - curious that the alleged Racism of one side just had to be mentioned but not of the other side.
Third point:
That Israel responded as if there had been nothing else before. This is pure Zionist framing of this stage of a long ongoing conflict between a colonialist occupier and the native resistance. Israel started this shit, way back when the Zionist colonialists started stealing the land of Palestinians and expelling them or murdering the (the first peak of it being the Nakba).
If Israel was given the exact same treatment as Hamas in that text, it would have been described as "the Terrorist anti-Islamic colonialist invader"
Now, I'd like to think you're just naively repeating the Zionist framing and propaganda that they so carefully spread in the West, in which case you might want to actually think about what you read before repeating it, as you're parroting outright propaganda.
Stop arguing with logic against these people, they only understand power.
I went to all the trouble of pointing out the obvious hypocrisy and propaganda not for "these people" but for everybody else.
I don't remember where I read that Israel used the Hannibal directive on october 7. Still, I don't think Hamas is that bad. They fight for they country that's being invaded. Everyone's pro ukraine, but not pro palestine, why's that?
Palestine is not Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization that's calling for the extermination of all Jews. Around 6,000 soldiers went into Israel and murder and tortured innocent people. Palestine is pretty innocent as far which isn't great for them as they are getting caught in the middle. Also Israel has reportedly killed some of its own people since they can't really tell who's part of Hamas. (They kill anything that could be a threat)
The Hannibal directive was used by Israel to intentionally target and kill any Israeli prisoners being taken on Oct. 7. Israel has come out and said it. The attack was horrible, but every action by Israel was about wiping Gaza off the map. They were just looking for "acceptable" ways to accomplish it. As for torturing people, many Palestinians who were not part of Hamas were held and tortured. The people who returned to Israel all seem to be saying they weren't tortured and were mostly bored sitting around waiting. It very much seems like a situation where a group was marginalized, constantly poked and proded, and then when someone responds they use it as reason to invoke further marginalization. Over and over until a "terrorist" organization was formed. Without such treatment, Hamas would have had no reason to exist. Zionism appears to have caused the entire issue.
Hamas murdered innocent Israelis. I'm not saying that Israel is the good guy here as clearly they have murdered and tortured. The think to keep in mind is that Hamas also killed innocent people. People lost loved ones on both sides and I think it is important to remember that murder is not ok. Israel may of killed far more people but that doesn't mean that Hamas isn't also guilty of murder. It is quite sad that people are taking thousands of human lives and putting them on some sort of scale. Everyone of those lost was a value human being and there will be people who are left with out a loved one. Doing comparisons of numbers overlooks the brutality of senseless killing.
Hamas murdered innocent Israelis
ANC murdered innocent South Africans, WW2 resistance groups murdered innocent Germans. To hell with you and your both sides bullshit that favours oppressors.
Hamas is a terrorist organization that’s calling for the extermination of all Jews
This is a lie on par with "Ukraine is controlled by Nazis".
Around 6,000 soldiers went into Israel and murder and tortured innocent people. Palestine is pretty innocent as far which isn’t great for them as they are getting caught in the middle.
Damn, crazy how Israeli citizens are "murdered and tortures by Hamas soldiers who went into Israel", while Palestinian citizens merely "get caught in the middle"
Fucking disgusting use of two faced rhetoric.
Idk, it seems to me that all that "hamas killed innocent people" it's just zionist propaganga, like the 40 babies decapitated ecc. If they're lying about this, who's to say they aren't lying about everything else? I tend to try to ignore things that seems propaganda online
But but the zionist "found" a Hamas plan on one of them "written in Enlish LOL" explaining their devlish plans.
To this day ZERO proof of rapes or decapitating babies.
Unlike the Palestinians who get tortured and raped en masse by these monsters.
(They kill anything that could be a threat)
How is a small child a threat?
If Hamas isn't Palestine then why is the IDF Isreal? Or whatever the fuck their ruling party is called
Not the only source, or a primary source, but the most comprehensive I've found so far. How Israel killed hundreds of its own people on 7 October
We also shouldn't be trying to propagandizing people to try and fanatically support us instead of "the other guy".
I think ultimately the conflict is way more complicated than many people are willing to admit. Hamas hates Jews so Israel can't really let down its guard. However, they probably shouldn't be gunning down anything that moves either. There really isn't a good solution but that's something that people really don't want to hear. It is much easier to align with one side.
Israel is dropping bombs on Gaza and telling the civilians whose families are murdered that it's in the name of Jewish sovereignty. No wonder some Palestinians hate Jews. Israel is telling them to.
Stop killing their babies and their mothers, and they'll stop joining Hamas.
Are you familiar with chickens and eggs?
Yes. The first chicken egg was laid by a non-chicken reptilian ancestor. And the cycle of violence between Israel and Palestine began with the 1948 Nakba, the mass displacement and ethnic cleansing operation which ended with 78% of Palestine's land occupied by Israel.
Give it back. There are people alive today who remember being forced to flee from their homes by Israeli soldiers during the Nakba. Let them go home.
There really isn’t a good solution but that’s something that people really don’t want to hear.
Actually there is a good solution, you just don't want to hear it. Free Palestine.
There's good solutions, and there's easy solutions. They just don't align. It's just those with power prefer the latter over the former, cause it helps them keep that power. Their end goal also generally isn't peace...
Which is really what this post is about. It's about the tactics used (by "both sides") to vilify their enemies and galvanize their base. To create extremists and reactionaries who think little and act a lot.
The real rub is those parties, the "good guys" and the "bad guys" (interchangeable depending on which power player we're talking about) are vastly outnumbered by the people caught in the middle. If they stopped reacting and started thinking, those power players would lose their momentum.
Algorithmic social media and targeted advertising aren't helping either. I'm glad to be here having this discussion. I think Lemmy and Mastodon are the future regardless of your political views.
I think they're just another kind of echo chamber people use to espouse views.
Until people change the way they express themselves, and open themselves to different ideas, nothing will change. Moving to a different social media tool because people think similarly to oneself there doesn't expand horizons or change perspectives, if anything it narrows them.
That's right, humans are terminaly flawed and dated. They should be replaced.
Memory updated.
Thanks hasbara operative
You would have said the same thing about the annihilation of the Warsaw ghetto
wow so brave
Genocide is not self-defense.
But Nazicide is.
Right-wing countries shouldn't exist.
The entirety of a political right shouldn't actually exist as anything more than theory. It should be the "dark version" of possibility we tell kids to avoid.
But here we are, actually dealing with their mental disease.
I don't know what version of a hospital I went to, but I should give it a great review after coming out of it from how deep in it I started. shudders
It’s incredible to hear them bleating about Israel being wiped off the map while they are doing EXACTLY that to Gaza. I swear… Israel has become the very thing they thought they were created to resist.
This often happens. People do the thing they are afraid will be done to them. They convince themselves that others will do it if they don’t, that it’s just the unfortunate rules of the game. And the next thing you know they have transformed from defender to aggressor. And so it continues.
I don't think that there ever was anything noble about the creation of Israel. It was always a straight-up land grab.
Instead, Israel wants to wipe Gaza off the map. But that is something entirely different.
At this point in history, I am 100% fine with Israel being "wiped off the map". They have abdicated all moral authority and their right to exist.
Maps are a social construct. Let's cross Israel off the map and write Palestine there instead. A Palestine where Jews, Muslims, Arabs, and people of every race and religion can live together in peace as equals.
Yep, the only "claim" people should have to land is to that where they already live, everything else is a lot more complicated. I have no problem with Jews living in Palestine, I do have a problem with genocidal Zionists claiming someone's home, using terrorist attacks as a pretense for pushing that claim and doing far worse to a group primarily composed of people who were just living there. Sometimes I wonder what things would be like if my ancestors hadn't spent hundreds of years drawing maps for everyone.
Just like they already do in other Muslim-majority countries.
Got the same letter today. Disgusting.
Absolutely zero chance this person recognizes Trump blew up the nuclear deal with Iran, simply because it was signed under Obama. Some of us are cursed with remembering the past.
I assume the highlighted region is meant to call out the fact that they’re claiming a metaphorical expression isn’t being used metaphorically.
Yes, that’s incredibly stupid, and yes the entire letter is pro-hate propaganda.
However, I think it’s important to also call out something else about the phrase “wiped of the map”…
It’s an English language idiomatic expression.
Idiomatic expressions are language specific.
When you see a quote attributed to someone speaking Farsi, and it includes English idiomatic expressions, you can be fairly certain the translation is complete bullshit, and whoever created the translation is trying to manipulate you.
Damn, very good point.
But "wiping something off the map" already is a metaphor.
If you literally "wipe something off a map" it would mean that you walk up to a map, take out a piece of cloth or similar wiping implement, and wipe the map until whatever you want to "wipe off" is no longer recognizable.
Which I guess is bad in terms that you've just damaged a piece of navigational equipment, not nothing really happened aside from that
"Declared independence"?
Didn't hate Jews, hate the government of Israel.
I honestly wonder what the Christian circle would do if Israel gets wiped out and there is no rapture, Armageddon, or tribulation.
Would they finally admit they're wrong then, or will it have morphed by then?
This is the kind of thing I would look up if I could just open the book of time and look at the pages past this. Fuuuuuck the lottery numbers, I wanna watch some post and future events, or different timelines.
That's honestly what I wish afterlife was
We die and wake up, but can travel through time at will, then that version of us dies and becomes 5th dimensional, etc.
I didn't actually believe this of course, but I wish it was true.