The analogy kind of falls apart since she is not limited to this guy and Chad. She's free to choose nothing at all. With Trump vs Biden, there's no viable third option, and having no president is not one of the options. So the "Trump is worse" argument becomes viable simply because you do have to choose one of them.
this post was submitted on 16 May 2024
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Continue with that analogy. What would happen if that woman had no other option. Should she choose the nice guy, the chad or object to the choice being fostered upon her and choose nobody? And if she's paired anyway with that person, should she then act as if it was her choice, or take actions to disengage from that person and destroy the system that caused these turn of events?
You can tactically vote for Biden to avoid Trump and still take actions to dismantle the system.
So the woman in our scenario should decide to choose the "Nice Guy" tactically?
No, I’m saying that your analogy breaks down.
I don't think it does. A choice fostered upon me at the threat of violence is not a choice at all. I refuse to participate and therefore legitimize such a farce.
You’re free to do nothing, but smart people choose to minimize harm when there are only bad choices in front of them.
Who said I'm "doing nothing"? Voting isn't doing anything. Only actions outside the ballot matter.
Voting isn’t doing anything? Did you not see what happened when Trump got to pick three Supreme Court justices? Roe is gone dude. This stuff matters.
It really doesn't. This is the momentum of your country either way. Or did you forget that your democrats had chances to put Supreme Court justices and they just...didn't?
What are you talking about? The senate has to approve them. The GOP controlled the senate. I get you don’t understand our system but before acting so smug I’d make sure I understand what happened.
Also they’re not “my” democrats.
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Non-participation is not the same as doing nothing. If she chooses to date neither, neither is in her life. If you do nothing, you still get trump or Biden. The analogy doesn’t hold.
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Yeah nah mate. You have the right to not vote. But if you choose to exercise this right you don't get to whinge about the person elected by those who did vote.
Society is not composed of you and you alone. It is composed of many. You took yourself outta this decision but it's still being made freely by everyone else and no, it doesn't impinge on you to accept the democratic consensus of the many
I understand that I'm living in an oppressive system enforced by violence and that my life is shaped at the threat of state violence. you don't need to reiterate that to me. It's why I'm not legitimizing it by participating in this farce of "democracy" and instead dedicate my life to changing it.
Whichever puppet is on top doesn't change all that whatsoever. Nor will your platitudes about be "accepting the democratic consensus of the many" when I don't have the alternative due to said violence.
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If the woman in the scenario is going to be stuck with the nice guy or Donald Trump, then yes she should tactically choose the guy who isn't an unapologetic rapist. She can influence the nice guy's behavior, and avoid the horror of Trump. She does not have to condone or accept the nice guy's bullshit behavior, and there will be a future.
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And if she's paired anyway with that person
This line right here is where it should be obvious how far this "analogy" has to be twisted to even start to become analogous.
It is an irrational nonequivalency and stupid.
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Using the trolley problem as an analogy, if you don't pull the lever the people run over by it are not your fault but the trolley company's, but if you do pull the lever the death of the guy on the other tracks is absolutely on you.
I assume you voted for Biden last election, to avoid the trolley running over the people in that proverbial track. Congratulations, you are guilty of murdering all those Palestinian children. Now, next election, if (when) Trump wins, your vote even for Biden is what gives legitimacy to his presidency.
After that news on research that a Trump victory would likely spell the end of NATO, don’t be surprised if the rightists starts to see this election as being about ending NATO and withdrawing from the UN.
Typical right-wing goals that maybe leftists don’t appreciate the strength of conviction that the hard-liners have.
That (and the obvious social conservative goals) are the only legitimacy that Drumpf really has.
edit: also, Trump trumped Biden on the Palestenian genocide when he moved the Israeli embassy. i’m sure that that emboldened Netanyahu to press even harder rightwards. Now look at it.
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Not Voting is a Vote, just as not choosing is a choice. It is simply a Vote for the worse option based upon your judgment. You remain 100% responsible for enabling what happens simply because you didn't do what you could to prevent it.
"In reality, there is no such thing as not voting: you either vote by voting, or you vote by staying home and tacitly doubling the value of some Diehard's vote."
David Foster Wallace, Consider the Lobster and Other Essays
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The whole point of the trolley problem is to illustrate how difficult culpability/blame is and how a single choice can be incredibly multi-faceted to the point where you can’t possibly untangle it and find the “correct” answer unless you adhere to a strict, well-defined moral framework. Which usually means making a choice to ignore other factors and other valid moral frameworks. Hence the conundrum. It’s real use is to test drive how each framework handles the situation and to see your reaction to it.
You're missing the lesson here, or purposely obscuring it to win an internet argument in the hopes no one looks too closely because you cited a thoroughly-meme’d smart sounding philosophical question.
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A woman has the legitimate choice to go out with a third guy or nobody. We do not have a legitimate choice of anybody but Biden or Trump for president. One of the two will be chosen.
This meme is stupid and amounts to pro-fascist propaganda.
youre going to get a lot of hate for stating facts.
theres a huge contingent here on lemmy who really want fascism to win, so theyre attempting to guilt people into voting for a 3rd party
Fascism is already winning. It’s going to win regardless of whether we vote for Trump or Biden. That’s just the reality of it. Vote for whoever the fuck you want. That’s your freedom. Just know that in America, the ruling class will never part with even a shred of their power.
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There are many issues with this analogy. For starters, the person can choose to date nobody and they aren’t stuck with any guy. “Nobody” is actually a choice. They can also look elsewhere - they have countless immediate, viable options.
If I choose not to vote, I still get Trump or Biden.
Wow. What a stupid thing to say out loud.
Voting is a chess move, not a fucking love letter.
Hate to break it to you, but your chess games have led you to the precipice of fascism and climate apocalypse. But keep playing, I'm sure the next game will reverse all that.
HMMMM DO I WANT THE GUY THAT ISN'T GOING TO STOP OUR SLIDE TO FASCISM or the guy who is going to accelerate it??
It's such a tough choice! I don't know what to do! Maybe I should just not vote so the second guy has a better chance???
Do you know what’s so frustrating about these people? They often won’t show up until 6-9 months before the election and start complaining about the lack of choice. They don’t vote in the primaries, they don’t work the other 3 1/2 years on campaigns or for causes they care about. They do nothing at the local or state levels. They show up last minute, scream “nothing we do matters,” then fuck off until the next general.
Just grenades complaining and griping and destroying things with no end in sight.
The American system is literally fake it is so sad watching you people pretend it isn't and your local elections matter. Your local elections are a sham and complete and total joke when you do this:
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LOL, tell me you don't understand how U.S. elections work without telling me you don't understand how U.S. elections work.
What a paint-chip eating moronic take.
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I'd rather hear the "Trump is worse" arguments than listen to people try to gaslight us into believing Biden's been good, at least "Trump is worse" is true
For real, these fascistic democrats are getting to be as big of a problem as the fascistic republicans.
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Dude comes so close, but then blames dem voters instead of the politicians or political system that represents capital ahead of people.
It'd be one thing if Biden was listening to the base, but he does all this in spite of the dems, not because of them.
Despite what the republicans say, Biden is not swayed by money (hence why Obama had to pay for his son's medical procedures) or what anyone tells him, he always does what he knows is right. Unfortunately he has the kind of moral compass that tells you to oppose desegregation and write 100:1 laws.
We can't change the system unless we vote en bloc. For president, there are two choices, but there are thousands of downticket races for state and local governments where there are valid progressive options. Conservatives have been extremely successful getting their base to consistently back conservative candidates in those local campaigns, and they are getting what they want because politicians fear their unified wrath.
Progressives can be torn apart and distracted by absurd thought experiments and false equivalencies.
It is so funny watching Americans contort themselves as if the elections aren't a sham. They act as if they are voting on board members for the banks, you know the people with power lol.
So your imaginary scum, being scum, somehow means that Biden having never remotely done anything like your imaginary scum, is the same as Fat Joffrey who behaves daily like your imaginary scum?? I don't think this is the "both sides" you're looking to employ.
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As others have said, the analogy is wrong, but for different reasons than what I've seen.
A better analogy is an abusive relationship. There's your partner who beats you regularly. You're often left bruised. You talk about leaving and the response is 'the other guy will break your arms, and unless you agree to stay with me, they're moving in and they will break your arms. I'm still punching you, and there's no chance I'll stop, but I'm better than that person.'
There is a cycle of abuse. Look it up. There's no way to make an abusive relationship better. There's very little chance that a person will change while they have power over a victim. Power gives up nothing without a fight.
The abuser might change, but only after reflection and a loss of power.
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