Meta community. Discuss about this lemmy instance or lemmy in general.
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/37235684
Obviously reporting transphobic comments to a transphobic mod isn't going to result in any action, so I'm wondering if the admins are going to do anything about it?
(if someone needs an image description, please ask)
OK that's the last straw for me. I am willing to give the benefit of a doubt to people, but this is the third strike for this person. So I've asked them to move their comm to another instance as they don't align with our instance values.
Yet another very common db0 W
Yet another very common transphobia L
Well done
Fantastic to hear, thank you!
Based db0 as always.
Another victory for the peoples court, hear hear
Well done. I appreciate the fuck out of this place.
I mean, serious question. Is the goal to produce a pure echo chamber where no dissent arises? How far does this go. It seems like the end result of this is 5-10 large groups of peeps who have "aligned values" that can endlessly reinforce each other. I have a MAGA chud relative that spouts all kinds of nonsense. Is the best thing to literally exorcise this person from my life? I don't know that a lot of identity driven silos is really all that healthy either.
Yes people should be safe, but that doesn't necessarily imply that no one EVER disagrees with them does it?
Tolerance of intolerance is how intolerance prospers.
Bigotry is not a matter of opinion, it is one of hate.
Right, but that involves you holding the definition of bigotry as objective truth. You don't think that anyone can have a good faith contrarian opinion to your values? I mean, life is complicated. People are complicated and come from a bunch of different communities or backgrounds. Do you think they should just bow down before your assessment, or do you think there should be some wiggle room to convince people of your ideas.
This is clearly a bad faith argument and I won't enter into debate with someone who is defending a transphobe. My right to exist is not on the table, and that you'd defend the right to of someone who would advocate otherwise to do so says a lot about your priorities.
Do better.
Clearly bad faith? Curious what you mean.
your liberty to swing your fist ends just where my nose begins
the same goes with opinions: opinions are valid until they start negatively effecting other people
transphobia is transphobia and hurts people. having transphobic opinions shut down hurts nobody
If that Maga chud kept repeating talking points about how people like you don't deserve human rights and actually managing to strip you of some, would you excise them or politely debate them?
Not every idea deserves a debate
Gendered sports is cringe, just sort into different "Leagues" based on different strength. Some cis boys can be born with a disadvantage, some cis girls can be born with a natural advantage, I don't see them complaining about the cis girls who have a natural advantage.
Also:
Gendered bathrooms are also dumb. What are people even doing in the bathroom lol, just use and gtfo.
I do agree with you in theory, but the problem with this is that there are enough tiers of male athletes to fill multiple leagues before any significant number of women would be included, and people tend to only be interested in the top level of competition. The effective result of eliminating gender segregation would be the total absence of women in competitive sports.
Some cis boys can be born with a disadvantage, some cis girls can be born with a natural advantage
Legit, even into adulthood. I'm the one smashing up concrete and paving while hubs hides under trees weeding
I don’t know enough about sports, or the skeletomuscular and endocrine differences between someone AMAB and someone AFAB, to comment on the topic.
I’d much prefer to defend our trans community, but there’s way too much misinformation for me to get the valid and credible information needed to do so. Can someone please share some links so people like me can be educated enough to speak out in support?
Read *Who's Afraid of Gender? *
The jest of it is that sometimes cis women have more testosterone than cis men. Even in top athletes.
And trans women on hrt have less than either.
I started transitioning over the summer, I've lost 15 lb of muscle mass.
Three decades of testosterone dominance made me tall and lanky. But no taller or more lanky than cis women I know. About the only major difference, as far as sports are concerned, would be my wider shoulders. And still needing to wear a cup I guess.
(Psst I think the word you meant was ‘gist’)
Oh thanks :)
Always fun to discover I've been misspelling a word for decades lol
Perfect. I’ll definitely check that out. Thank you!
If anyone else is as strapped as I am, I just confirmed they have the E-book for loan on my local library website. Borrowing from the library may help authors less than purchase, but it’s still better than piracy.
They are arguing that they have said nothing wrong because men are not allowed in women's spots... ugh
Yeah, that person is a transphobe and a sealion, and there is absolutely no point in providing them any leeway or platform to spew their bigotry from.
Yeah, people are so weird.
I'm not a fan of the tone they are using to discuss this. There is a difference from transitioning before puberty vs after. There are specific biological differences that a mtf woman will have that hormones won't change. There is an issue that needs to be resolved with sports. I don't know what the solution is, but shutting down conversation doesn't seem like it. Shutting down transphobia, yes absolutely. I hope I'm not coming off poorly.
There are specific biological differences that a mtf woman will have that hormones won’t change.
This is transphobia since it is factually incorrect and stems from wilful ignorance, and I'm shutting it, and your tone policing, down. There, how's that?
What makes you think it's willful ignorance over garden-variety ignorance? Being incorrect and thinking you are correct is different from purposefully keeping yourself ignorant.
I have no horse in this race, and willfully being ignorant and spreading disinformation about trans topics willfully is indeed transphobic and warrants aggressive shutdowns, like the comment I'm replying to. But unless I'm missing something I don't see the evidence of bad intent here? It just seemed like a bit of a leap.
I honestly don't know how to simplify it further: impact > intent. Always. This understanding is a fundamental corner stone to all anti-oppression work.
E: Either way, I'm done engaging in this derailment and centring of privileged feelings. The people who prioritise their own comfort and feelings over the harm they cause others, and who would rather invest all of their energy in to finding loopholes to allow them to continue avoiding holding themselves accountable for their actions, instead of just, I donno, listening to marginalised people who are telling them that they are causing harm, are, well, never going to listen. And I simply have better things to do with my time and emotional labour.
Im leaving his comment up in order to respond but I don't want to rehash that discussion here.
The reason this decision was taken was not just this one discussion. It was because that person has too many red flags for my liking on the stuff they would defend, always juuuuust skirting the line of what is acceptable discourse here.
We'd better do our best to ruin these people because they don't agree with us. No tolerance for the intolerant! Everyone who doesn't immediately sign up for our beliefs, must be intolerant, by definition. Burn em all!!!!
Fuck off, it's an internet forum.
Also?
Yes.
Being intolerant makes you intolerant. Good spot.
There's a difference between tolerating someone's beliefs and immediately adopting them as your own. Just because someone doesn't share your beliefs, does not mean they are being intolerant.
Bad take
Why don't we just make a trans league so we can just stop talking about this with anyone ever again?
Also, does a person who has gone through male puberty before transition not have at least some advantage in certain areas due to bone structure alone? I understand that trans girls who pre-empt puberty are likely physically equivalent to their cisgendered peers, but I have my reservations about integrating people who transition later in life. If I'm wrong, I would love to see any studies anyone may want to share.
EDIT: I am wrong, thank you flamingembers and southsamurai. I would also like to apologize for the wording of this post. My original thought was that trans women who previously went through male puberty may have an advantage in some areas due to a potential wider skeletal structure in their upper bodies as compared to cisgendered peers. I did let my (unfounded on research!) opinion creep into that too much, and I do understand why that would leave a bad taste in the mouth of anyone who knows better.
The evidence clearly contradicts the thinking that my original post was based upon - there was no area studied where trans women had an advantage. On top of that, it also appears trans women can't even intake as much oxygen as cis women - which would already offset any size differences even if trans women were bigger and stronger on average (they aren't).
This isn't news to anyone educated, but I wanted to edit this comment so that any transphobes upvoting my post due to having the same flavor of ignorance that they do understand that I do not agree with them, and I am not trying to propagate their views.
Nope. Male puberty doesn't cause changes that aren't mitigated by transition.
Any changes to bone structure that don't change are the ones that are present in any athlete in a given sport.
I'm not digging through studies for you, because I haven't gotten a single paycheck from anyone ever for doing so online. That information is out there, and it's your responsibility to do your due diligence on the matter.
If you don't know that you're wrong or right already, by having looked for the information needed to make a credible opinion, maybe hang back a bit, or at least ask better questions.
Maybe some people learn things by asking questions in the right spaces to be corrected intellectually. I'm completely fine with being wrong, that's why I asked a controversial question here. I don't need you to provide studies to rethink my opinion, I just figured people in this thread might have some available. Apparently the only thing you have on hand at the moment is snark.
Also you'll only help educate people if you get paid? What??? This would have been such a good moment to point me toward literally any resources that could help in my research. You didn't even have to link a study, you could just link a database. You and I both know there are studies funded by special interest groups that are biased against trans people. I never claimed to have a credible opinion, which is why I invited discourse.
Anyway, thanks for your statement. I guess I'll have to look into this more myself. Just keep in mind that most people, when the burden of research is placed upon them by someone who clearly has knowledge of the subject, will simply say "fuck that" and keep being ignorant.
EDIT: If you check this thread again, I'd like to apologize for my incredulity at your statement. I didn't realize the full ignorance on display in my original comment at the time, and my response was fueled by that. I acted as though you were being overly snarky, which I no longer believe was the case. I acted as though research was a burden. It's not, but my point was that I was seeking information socially and assumed someone might have studies on hand, which is what I was looking for, and your response didn't offer. You did, however, give me the correct information - it was my mistake to act as though it was unfounded due to your unwillingness to provide sources. So, in contradiction to what I said earlier, I did need studies to rethink my opinion. That was completely my mistake, and I should have thought more about what I wanted from this discussion before posting or responding in the first place. You are correct, it is my responsibility to educate myself. I should have used your statement as a jumping off point for my own research, but I was caught up in the one detail of my original post wherein I asked for studies, and because of that I saw your comment as less informational and more snarky. I apologize for misinterpreting your intentions.
I do still believe the uneducated need a helping hand from time to time. My purpose was to reach out for that, not to start a fight, and I apologize for being inflammatory as well.
All that said, I don't necessarily think it was a bad idea to reveal my ignorance, as you helped inform me, and led to an interaction where someone did link studies that proved me wrong. I understand how I came across, and why you would be unwilling to put in that effort for someone displaying that level of ignorance. It was unfair to insinuate that I'd be having this discussion under my terms - I apologize for that. I'm grateful that flamingembers did step in to meet me on my ground, and strongly believe that in some cases (mine included) using someone's established mindset and what they're willing to accept to spark discussion that leads to change is what helps them grow. However, I recognize your attempt to do this in your response and apologize for my unwillingness to connect at the time because I didn't see how it fit into my original question (which was supposed to be asking for studies, but really just came across as a challenge)
I'm leaving my original response unedited. I hope anyone else reading this can use my original response as an example of how not to clarify your thoughts.
There aren't enough trans people to have our own league. Also separate but equal is not an ethical solution.
No, they are not at an advantage https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/rcna148437
You're right, that is an unrealistic solution. I've never been interested in sports, so I admit I didn't really put much thought into that. I guess, in my mind, trans people in sports is one of the less dire issues we face today. But, I should acknowledge that there are trans people whose life revolves around sports, and I appreciate you framing it the way it is: separate but 'equal.' That really adds a stark perspective to it that I admittedly had not considered.
Thank you so much for linking research, I'll read that right now.
EDIT: I didn't read the article, I clicked their link to the study and read the abstract and data. So, if I'm reading the data correctly, the only factor measured where trans athletes have an advantage is the slightly higher grip strength of trans women? Just making sure I'm interpreting that correctly. Thank you so much for sending that my way.
It's worth keeping in mind that the issue was entirely manufactured so that they could turn the public against trans people.
https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/opinion-the-trans-sports-attacks
That's good to know, thank you for this!
What a great fucking read. Really helped open my eyes to how this sports issue is used to dehumanize us. I really appreciated how she laid out the logical next steps after a trans sports ban, and how it's inevitably leveraged to take away more and more of our rights. I'll definitely be following her articles to keep myself informed.
Side Note: Is that journalist Zoey Zephyr's wife? I feel like I recognize her face.
fun fact: your body is an incredibly dynamic system and hormones are the major drivers for those changes. swap the hormones out and the body adjusts to its new normal. when you do this is fairly immaterial.
also 'later in life' you mean when adults are playing sports together? oh no.... or do you mean professional sports where transgenders currently would be banned regardless because of bigotry? what exactly are we talking about here?
maybe you should leave these opinions to train medical professionals who work with these issues on the regular instead of your gut.
Transphobes can get wrecked.
This same dipshit aggressively scoffed at calling people Nazis for transphobic abuse on SDF.
https://sh.itjust.works/post/32203609/16487627
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/37009822/16458134
'They're just like the Nazis in 1931, not 1935! How dare you compare them.'