this post was submitted on 27 Jun 2024
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[–] [email protected] 103 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (7 children)

Or , hear me out, what if US auto makers stop trying to force overpriced oversized trash on us? Maybe try to compete?

[–] [email protected] 25 points 10 months ago

They get a lot of bribes from the oil industry. This is about sabotage, not competition.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 10 months ago (2 children)

You don't want a giant ass pickup truck that drives like a tank, takes up 1.5 times the parking space and goes 8 miles on the gallon?

[–] [email protected] 16 points 10 months ago (2 children)

No, I want a light pickup from the 80s or 90s but with a warranty and a full size bed and no back seat. Y'know, something kinda utilitarian. A fucking Ranger is bigger now than an F-150 was in 2000. An F-150 is a goddamn SUV with a worthless 4 foot bed. What the hell is that good for?

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[–] [email protected] 13 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (10 children)

Electric cars in the US are more expensive mostly due to higher costs of overhead. For example, we have a minimum wage, and China uses forced labor.

Good luck buying anything made in the US for less money than on AliExpress.

Edit: Is this really the same group of people that want US businesses to divest from Israel, defending products made with the slave labor of Uyghurs?

In Xinjiang, the government is the trafficker. Authorities use threats of physical violence, forcible drug intake, physical and sexual abuse, and torture to force detainees to work in adjacent or off-site factories or worksites producing garments, footwear, carpets, yarn, food products, holiday decorations, building materials, extractives, materials for solar power equipment and other renewable energy components, consumer electronics, bedding, hair products, cleaning supplies, personal protective equipment, face masks, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, and other goods—and these goods are finding their way into businesses and homes around the world.

https://www.state.gov/forced-labor-in-chinas-xinjiang-region/

[–] [email protected] 15 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Dude, there is just no way on earth that automakers are making razor thin margins on $80,000 F250 extended cab super duty pavement princesses that are basically just minivans in a trenchcoat.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (5 children)

You can buy a Nissan Leaf starting at $28k. It’s made in US, Japan, and Mexico.

https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/electric-cars/leaf.html

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Wow, tell us how indoctrinated you are.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Do you mean informed?

In Xinjiang, the government is the trafficker. Authorities use threats of physical violence, forcible drug intake, physical and sexual abuse, and torture to force detainees to work in adjacent or off-site factories or worksites producing garments, footwear, carpets, yarn, food products, holiday decorations, building materials, extractives, materials for solar power equipment and other renewable energy components, consumer electronics, bedding, hair products, cleaning supplies, personal protective equipment, face masks, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, and other goods—and these goods are finding their way into businesses and homes around the world.

https://www.state.gov/forced-labor-in-chinas-xinjiang-region/

In other words, the U.S. content of “Made in China” is about 55%. The fact that the U.S. content of Chinese goods is much higher than for imports as a whole is mainly due to higher retail and wholesale margins on consumer electronics and clothing than on most other goods and services.

https://www.frbsf.org/research-and-insights/publications/economic-letter/2011/08/us-made-in-china/

It is simply more economical to use forced labor than to pay minimum wage. It results in lower price points on Chinese branded products, and higher margins on US branded products produced in China. This problem is not exclusive to automotive manufacturing, as illustrated in the above research article.

To be clear on my personal opinion, I’m not recommending US industry over foreign. I drive a Hyundai. I’m specifically speaking against Chinese industry, just as Biden’s tariffs are not applicable to imports aside from China.

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[–] [email protected] 60 points 10 months ago (4 children)

Yeah well, fuck the American auto industry for not joining the 21st century.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 10 months ago (1 children)

It's like when they dragged their feet making fuel efficient cars after the oil crisis

[–] [email protected] 13 points 10 months ago

Ya if they want to survive its time to adapt and compete. This is what complacency sets up and I don't feel bad for them at all. They saw this coming and probably just sat there expecting a bailout.

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[–] [email protected] 48 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (5 children)

Why is competition for US auto makers a bad thing ?

[–] [email protected] 27 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Because we don't like free markets. We like the illusion of choice, but the security of monopoly.

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[–] [email protected] 22 points 10 months ago (2 children)

This isn't competition, it sounds like the CCP heavily subsidises the manufacture, in an attempt to kill the American industry off.

Thinking in decades or centuries is a very powerful tool!

[–] [email protected] 16 points 10 months ago (2 children)

This isn’t competition, it sounds like the CCP heavily subsidises the manufacture

China: "Here, have a bunch of cheap electric vehicles to replace your aging fleet of ICE engines. Don't worry, we're picking up a part of the tab."

Americans: "What a great deal! We'll buy them in droves."

State Government: "Not so fast! This wouldn't be fair to honest, hard working domestic car companies like Tesla and Volvo and Toyota."

Thinking in decades or centuries is a very powerful tool!

Shame we're only capable of thinking about the next quarter's profits.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago (4 children)

The US subsidizes their EV industry twice as much as China. The real why China can do this is because the US has gutted their industrial base in favor of financialization while China built up their industrial base.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Because the US is an authoritarian pseudo democracy being run by cartels. And free market and capitalism is a death sentence for them.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 10 months ago (1 children)

On top of the other things people are saying, I guarantee that the U.S. automakers will do a "China will take your jobs" thing if this happens.

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[–] [email protected] 46 points 10 months ago (3 children)

Sounds like US automaker higher prices are the actual threat.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 10 months ago (4 children)

For what it's worth, a government can absolutely subsidized an industry in an attempt to capture a foreign market.

There's a reason Japan and Korea have their own auto industries despite being next door to the largest manufacturing nation on earth, and it isn't because they're somehow making and distributing them for even less than China.

That being said, several automakers have blindfolded themselves about the type of cars people want. I do hope this threat is significant enough that automakers actually shift to mini-electric transportation options.

If not, I'd be happy enough buying a small Chinese electric even if the taxes made it equivalent to a larger "western" vehicle. Because it's what I want to have available to me and it's nice to fuck capitalists with capitalism.

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 10 months ago (1 children)

June 11th 2024 GM announced that the board approved a 6 Billion dollar stock buyback plan.

That is a direct wealth transfer from the company to the owners.

We have met the enemy, and they are us.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 10 months ago (2 children)

The next quarter is the only thing that matters.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 10 months ago (2 children)

God forbid these parasites have to compete.

Z HORROR, HORROR, I TELL U

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

I doubt I will ever buy from the Big 3 again. Bailout parasites. Tried of these piece of shit too big too fail corps pulling this crap.

My next car will be a Chinese EV, if I have to drive it over the Mexican border myself.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 10 months ago (2 children)

This opinion is ridiculous as "the big 3" doesn't even exist anymore and hasn't for over a decade. Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep is owned by a Scandanavian company.

Also this isn't written to protect the few remaining American companies, it's to protect the entire auto industry in the US including Kia/Hyundai, VW, Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, BMW, Subaru, etc.

China selling vehicles with massive subsidies that allow them to undercut everyone else in the market isn't good for anybody but China because as soon as they put their competitors out of business, they will jack the price of their cars up as high as they want.

This is the same reason why when Walmart comes to a new town, all the similar local businesses shut down because it's impossible to compete with their deep pockets, but now you're advocating for it on a national scale which will potentially cost hundreds of thousands of domestic manufacturing jobs.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago (8 children)

isn’t good for anybody but China

It's good for all the Americans who want an EV but can't afford any of the few models that are out there that you can legally purchase in the U.S.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

At this point I believe its the international market that is subsidising Chinese EVs. Take a look at the byd dolphin mini / seagull. It is priced starting at $21,000 in mexico while the price in China is from $9700. You find many other examples of the same car models sold at much higher price overseas than locally in China.

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 10 months ago

Yeah, automakers pose a threat to automakers!

[–] [email protected] 14 points 10 months ago
[–] [email protected] 14 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I'm super conflicted about this. I want cheap EVs, but at the same time, China is intentionally dumping their prices to kill competition so they can later jack it up.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago (6 children)

It won't matter how fair things were if we are all dead.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago (6 children)

I mean, EVs are not going to save the earth. Investments/innovations into our infrastructures will.

Nuclear power is the only thing currently that can save us. Unfortunately, we have ill-informed people not understanding what nuclear is.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago (2 children)

The opposite of dumping is happening. For example the Kia EV5 is sold at [$20k in China](https://electrek.co/2023/11/17/kia-launches-20k-ev5-electric-suv-china-rival-tesla-model-y/) while the same made in China model is sold overseas [Starting at $46k](https://electrek.co/2024/04/04/kia-set-to-export-this-all-electric-suv-at-a-price-that-undercuts-tesla/)

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 10 months ago (1 children)

China seems to be succeeding in EV vehicles, not just cars, airplanes too. I'm sorta pining for the days when we were talking about a North America Union. These days its all about protectionism and wars. :(

[–] [email protected] 6 points 10 months ago (2 children)

You can thank Trump for gutting NAFTA, making US companies weaker in the bloc as a result

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 10 months ago

Have they tried being competitive?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 10 months ago

Sounds like some healthy competition the caps are always on about

[–] [email protected] 8 points 10 months ago

What? A full body crumple zone vehicle!? Where do I sign up!?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

They should be very concerned. However they have the advantage of time, place, protectionism. They already have factories and employees. The technology is known. They’re admitting they are aware of the market. The only way they can lose is if they don’t even try ….

We’ve spent years saying how short sighted they are to not be able to look ahead of the immediate term, now they’re admitting they can’t even look ahead 2-3 years

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